Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: "Clean Facilitator"

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Glastonbury, England
    Posts
    512

    Default "Clean Facilitator"

    Seems to me there is a growing confusion and conflict over the use of "clean" and its scope.

    A clean facilitator, from my perspective, has a huge range of emergent processes available, whereas here it is constrained to Symbolic Modelling and Clean Space. Clearly this is a market confusion.

    Symbolic Modelling is the proper name what is now in our community the vernacular of "clean language". Unfortunately, this is now published and spread into the wider world. As a result, the wider world now only sees clean language as this tiny little aspect of the whole that now exists.

    Creating competencies for a "clean facilitator" would IMO have to include the emergence, in which, frankly, most of the clean community is lacking in training/competence/awareness and many years behind the advances made in France and at Holigral.

    Perhaps there is a divergence, but it seems to me that the direction of the use of the terms is heading / has arrived, at a narrow subset of the legacy of David.

    Comments welcomed.

    Steven

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Holland
    Posts
    836

    Default

    Dear Steve,


    You're quite right:

    Below, in alphabetical order, without any judgment about the quality, an overview of the clean concepts and processes, to the best of my knowledge so far.
    Many of them are similar and overlap.

    Adjacency (David Grove)
    Analogue Forms (Holigral)
    Analysis (Holigral)
    Ark Angle (Holigral) (see also Whirlygig)
    Betweens (Holigral)
    Black Box (CJC)

    Boolean (Holigral)
    Clean Cards (Sylvie de Clerck)
    Clean Coaching (David Grove) (see also Emergent Knowledge)
    Clean Language (David Grove) (see also Symbolic Modelling)
    Clean Space (David Grove) (see also Emergent Knowledge)
    Cultural Forms (Holigral)

    De-interleaving (Holigral)
    Emergent Knowledge (David Grove)
    Emerging Moving (Holigral)
    Genealogical Healing (David Grove)
    Group Forms (Holigral)
    Idea Generator (Matthew H)
    Identifying (CJC)
    Inging (Holigral)
    Inner Child Work (David Grove)
    Interpreting Projections (Holigral)
    Issue Busting (Holigral)
    Joy of Six (David Grove)
    Life-Cycle Patterns and Pyramid models (Holigral)

    Metaphor Therapy (David Grove)
    Perceptual Space (Holigral)
    Problem solving (CJC)
    Pronoun Scaling (Holigral)
    Pulling Back (Holigral)
    Releasing (Holigral)
    Re-Scaling (Holigral)
    Relating (Holigral)
    Revelatory forms (Holigral)

    Scenario Planning (Holigral)
    Self-Alignment (Matthew H)
    Simple Scaling (Holigral)
    Small World Networks (David Grove)
    Space (Holigral)
    Spinning (Holigral)
    Spinning (David Grove)
    Story Busting (Holigral)
    Symbolic Modelling (Penny Tompkins and James Lawley)
    Systemic Modelling (Caitlin Walker and Nancy Doyle)
    Tania's games (Tania Korzac)

    Truth Process (Holigral)
    Turning (Holigral)
    Ventriloquist Forms (Holigral)

    Whirly Gig (David Grove)
    Words that Wound (David Grove)

    Love,

    CJC



    Reply Reply With Quote Blog this Post
    Last edited by Corrie van Wijk; 09 January 2012 at 10:30 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    No fixed abode.
    Posts
    99
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    I have some serious concerns about some of Steve's statements. For example:

    1. "Symbolic Modelling is the proper name what is now in our community the vernacular of "clean language". I don't think of it like this at all. Clean Language is a method. A way of asking questions (and giving instructions?). It is not in and of itself a methodology. A methodology also includes explicit and implicit assumptions about process, the mind, communication, etc. etc. (See Penny Tompkins' post of 13 Nov 2008 on this topic.)

    Many methodologies make use of Clean Language. Symbolic Modelling happens to be one. David's Metaphor Therapy is another. Conversational Clean Coaching is another. Clean Language is not even confined to change processes. It has been successfully used in group facilitation and organisational development (e.g. Caitlin Walker & Nancy Doyle), as a research methodology (e.g. the joint Clean Change Company and University of Surrey research), as a method of interviewing (e.g. recruitment, market research, police, etc.) and plenty of other applications.

    2. "Creating competencies for a "clean facilitator" would IMO have to include the emergence". I think it does. 'Emergence' did not enter the field when David came up with the term 'Emergent Knowledge' or even when he developed Clean Space. Penny and I had been talking to David about emergence for several years before it 'emerged' in his work. Our first article on Symbolic Modelling in 1997 said "the modelling process we use is based on two elements: Clean Language and a framework of emergent properties within symbolic systems". From the very beginning, 'emergence' has been central to Symbolic Modelling. I am not for a moment suggesting David got the idea from us. I am suggesting that people well trained in Symbolic Modelling have both competence with, and awareness of 'emergence' – but maybe not the kind of emergence Steve refers to.
    Last edited by JamesLawley; 21 February 2012 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Add link to earlier post

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    No fixed abode.
    Posts
    99
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Corrie, what's the purpose of this list?

    It contains 'Metaphor Therapy' (a methodology containing many processes, theories, techniques, etc. David developed over 15 or so years) as one entry, and 'Adjacency' (an idea/concept with various applications) as another. And yet it does not contain most of the ideas and processes that David listed in his own review of his work undertaken in 2004. See http://www.cleanlanguage.co.uk/artic...004/Page1.html

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Holland
    Posts
    836

    Default

    Hi James,

    The purpose of the list is to have one, so thank you for adding more information and a beginning of a categorization. To be honest, you're probably more qualified to make one: it's just that I probably know a little bit more about Holigral and France.
    I'll integrate it in my book 'A Theory of Everyone; a useful guide to reality'.

    Love,

    Corrie

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Glastonbury, England
    Posts
    512

    Default Fair Enough ...

    Thanks James, clearly my worries must be misplaced, regarding a narrow definition of clean language. The competencies do seem rather overly based over SyM and space, and with poor justice to the later work, so far as I can see.

    Emergence, yes there are many uses of a word, and emerging anything from below the surface will allow for a broad use. EK I felt to be too narrow a term - rather mental.

    Cybernetic solutions (SyM) come from an NLP paradigm as we have discussed before, and in my opinion, run contrary to the flow of emergence, which in my opinion is to allow the flow of the signals to do their job, complete and therefore end any symptoms-signals. Peace is the emergent result of emergence that flows the signals.

    Being true to the original aim of David's work, whereas I see the other approaches as being applied to other applications, David developed metaphor to return the dissociated outer child, B, to the body, A - metaphor to reduce the pain of experiencing and to ease the movement. CS was to move A to collect all the B's, although this is not what is taught nor now i see it being used by the standard clean training. EK was the unfinished symphony, that I completed into Holigral - a complete suite and ways of recovering all the dissociated aspects, returning the intruded life force back to its origins and cleaning ancestral trails, passing through many cosmological boundaries to bring a person into full at-peace beingness, where all flows and they are at one with the world around - even if it may not appear peaceful to observers. I thought the "cultural fields" experience I demonstrated at the practice group would have shown a little of what is possible with a complete method.

    So, when I look at the conventional clean language training, I see less than 1% of the greater whole ...

    best

    Steven

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Holland
    Posts
    836

    Default

    Below an update of the list, including James' suggestion.

    A, B & C (David Grove)
    Adjacency (David Grove)
    Analogue Forms (Holigral)
    Analysis (Holigral)
    Ancestral lineage and redemptive metaphors (David Grove)
    Anxiety disorders and memories (David Grove)

    Ark Angle (Holigral) (see also Whirlygig)
    Betweens (Holigral)
    Black Box (CJC)

    Boolean (Holigral)
    Chicken and egg solutions (David Grove)
    Child within (David Grove)

    Clean Cards (Sylvie de Clerck)
    Clean Coaching (David Grove) (see also Emergent Knowledge)
    Clean Language (David Grove) (see also Symbolic Modelling)
    Clean Space (David Grove) (see also Emergent Knowledge)
    Cultural Forms (Holigral)

    De-interleaving (Holigral)
    Disassociation and fragmentation (David Grove)

    Emergent Knowledge (David Grove)
    Emerging Moving (Holigral)
    Eye and body movements in space (David Grove)

    Genealogical Healing (David Grove)
    Group Forms (Holigral)
    Hieroglyphics and mission statements (David Grove)

    Idea Generator (Matthew H)
    Identifying (CJC)
    Inging (Holigral)
    Inner Child Work (David Grove)
    Inner worlds (David Grove)

    Interpreting Projections (Holigral)
    Issue Busting (Holigral)
    Joy of Six (David Grove)
    Life-Cycle Patterns and Pyramid models (Holigral)
    Metaphor mapping (David Grove)

    Metaphor Therapy (David Grove)
    Nouns and adjectives (David Grove)

    Perceptual Space (Holigral)
    Physiological symptoms represented as metaphors (David Grove)

    Problem solving (CJC)
    Pronoun Scaling (Holigral)
    Pulling back to T minus 2: preventing disassociation (David Grove)

    Pulling Back (Holigral)
    Releasing (Holigral)
    Re-Scaling (Holigral)
    Relating (Holigral)
    Revelatory forms (Holigral)

    Scenario Planning (Holigral)
    Self-Alignment (Matthew H)
    Simple Scaling (Holigral)
    Small World Networks (David Grove)
    Space (Holigral)
    Spinning (David Grove)
    Spinning (Holigral)

    Story Busting (Holigral)
    Symbolic Modelling (Penny Tompkins and James Lawley)
    Systemic Modelling (Caitlin Walker and Nancy Doyle)
    T minus 1 (David Grove)
    Tania's games (Tania Korzac)

    Truth Process (Holigral)
    Turning (Holigral)
    Ventriloquist Forms (Holigral)
    The way of the noun: ontological development (David Grove)

    Whirly Gig (David Grove)
    Words that Wound (David Grove)

    Which of these are:
    a methodology containing many processes, theories, techniques, etc. David developed over 15 or so years, (M)
    which an idea/concept with various applications,(I/C)
    which a process? (P)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •