Analogue Conditioning

[MatthewH]

Thank you Gents,

I'm finding this an interesting topic - and noticing that for me this relates to a pre-goal / pre-purpose function. I consider this to be more aligned with intention - as simple or as fundamental as the consciousness directing energy. This could be focussed on a goal, or simply gazing at lightwaves bouncing off leaves. I suppose that may also define a distinction between concentration and meditation (active participation and passive participation).

I have a sense of how momemtum and object-oriented forms may fit into this - drive the system, allow the system to respond, drive the system ... etc. This seems to fit the natural patterns of nature: Day & Night, Spring/Summer & Autumn/Winter, awake/sleep etc.

So would that then fall into active processing & passive processing. Where both are required - maybe this also has connections to conscious/unconscious - left brain/right brain - and at a strectch maybe even analogue/digital? and I'm wondering Steve - Real/Imaginary. Working with both, brings them into alignment, or so they work in unison... something of that nature?

[Steve Saunders]

You're on the right Matthew, leading to the developments we made in December ... the emergent patterns of 6 (or thereabouts (4+)) are required for 'normal' people and sometimes for 'non-normal spectrum' people to move from OO-think (left-brain, step-by-step) into flow (right brain) / momentum.

Then (December) we found the 'revelatory' patterns, where only one question, asked in old english form, following the meaning/pattern of the 7-day-week model, gave instant complete insight and mind-flowing experience/knowing into the focus of attention. This reduced a 42-question issue-buster to 6 different questions used in sequence to give a complete, holistic understanding. It is this that has had magical effects on thousands of nonlexics and 'autistic' people as they instantly get the whole revelation.

So, the emergence serves really as the pathway from OO-think (metaphor/space/time) into flow, and then the revelatory patterns lead to genius states. It is really rather beautiful, if I say so myself. :-)

We also found, thanks to Tania, the patterns of the matrix that match into the 7-fold model fractally, and so now we have a precise science, allowing prediction, diagnosis and precise interventions; clean ones, no less, with a 10-dimensional fractal structure allowing for a unique patterning of every human being, but also precise analysis.

[MatthewH]

- Nice one!

These patterns/processes are related to personal evolution. In what way/form are they applicable to larger human structures, at a cultural level? even just for analysis?

[Steve Saunders]

it is fractal, given the one human is a collective, the same model works for a group, team, culture, country, region, religion, etc ... no worries :-)

[Feralchild]

Could you give us an example of this "precise analysis" ?

[Steve Saunders]

Hmmn, that would require a client giving permission, or publishing a transcript, but a simple pattern of 10 sets of 10 questions will index to the unique structure.

[Feralchild]

For the moment,I was curious about your analyses of groups rather than individuals;since you have mentioned the concept before,what would be your analysis of "englishness" ?

[Steve Saunders]

Englishness is an entire anthropological study in its own right - as is each human being. To even start to be aware of englishness requires significant times living in non-English cultures and lands just to even start to get an outside view that might balance the inside one.

We can start from the knowing of the Grail: "the land and the king are one" - our Government, whether we like it or not, is a perfect reflection of englishness/welshness/scottishness/northern irishness, as well as other influences. historically England has experienced migration populations: Celts, Beaker, Roman Empire, Saxon, Viking, Norman/French, African, Asian, other European, and more - but our Government surprisingly still has migration issues, something we can reflect from our American cousins who are positively iron-curtaining their land now.

If our government is mostly corrupt, so are the people; not everyone, but the reason "honour and fair play" are so important is because they are somewhat more rare that we might like to admit.

We can also look at our sporting stars and see the reflections there: englishness is changing, there are sports where the team is winning, and if we look closely we see gamesmanship and rife cheating (diving, fouling, shirt-pulling). It is not a pleasant reflection, but there it is.

We can look at our police, prisons, justice, etc and also see some fairly unpleasant reflections around rules, power, control, punishment for breaking rules etc, and see this then happening in the social matrix. If one breaks a social rule, it is damned as surely as a court of law treats crime.

Rather than analysing Englishness, it is easier to notice the points where it touches interacting with other cultures (its boundaries). Fluid Mechanics shows all the important information is in the boundary layer.

We can compare England to other countries and notice that in England houses rarely have shutters or bars, and rarely have big walls and gates to deter incomers, the house may be the castle, but the front is mostly open. The back is as hidden-from-view as possible ...

As it is, just look and see ...

[Feralchild]

I think you may have hit on something there Steven,I think our national identity may be in need of a good dose of therapy-lots of defence mechanisms seem to be in evidence.
Then again,I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised;being invaded by the Romans and Vikings is bad enough,but Beaker? - how are we going to come to terms with being usurped by one of the muppets.

[Steve Saunders]

ah, well the muppets are yet another reflection ... quite an interesting one, we have had the odd Kermit and Miss Piggy turn up on retreats ...

[Feralchild]

Then here is another reflection,I am actually a Russian spy and have gained the information my masters requested on you English,and am now flying back to the motherland before your authorities can apprehend me.
However,I'm not really conversant with fluid mechanics-I suppose,as usual, that the real issue is the facts versus the popularly promoted fictions.You people seem to be afflicted with a perspective of Englishness which is more akin to Debrett's Correct Form writ large,and a little P.C. spin hardly disguises the neo-colonialist idiocy,methinks your cultural isolation is not actually so splendid.Da svedanya.
I'm watching the news at present,hence the topical humour,but perhaps Bateson had a good idea in that there may be much of value which may be learned from cultures that do not obsess about kicking an inflated pigs bladder around a field

[Steve Saunders]

LOL ... fluid mechanics is the study of flow, quite complex equations, but the simple physics of it is that flow is laminar (straight) except due to the disturbances of interacting with the boundaries, and so the information is all gleaned at the boundaries. In vegetables the goodness is mostly in the skin, the face and other skin shows the information relating to human interacting, in systems thinking the boundary defines the scope and the interfaces, in scaling, once a boundary is created one has a vector for the transformation.

Agreeing, xenophobia is rich in england, but try central usa ... my theory is the further from the border the more xenophobic ... but then so many counter-examples ... island isolation - its not the island, there are plenty of non-xenophobic islands, maybe there is something about there being no further to go north-west ... "the last stand" of the race before it is overrun by the newer, stronger strain of vibrant humanity with greater will to live, do and prosper ...?

Russians can just continue to bimble westward and gradually take over ...no worries really, just take the few-hundred-year perspective, and think of the world-wide game called 'risk' - numbers win ... thus understand India's unwritten policy of equalling china in population ...

"you people" - now that is a beautiful cultural pronoun, one could work with ... :-)

[phil]

So, Boris, we meet again... Don't try to escape, the place is surrounded... Hand over the microdot with the Essence of Englishness encoded on it... or we will have to introduce you to... the Morris Men!

[Feralchild]

Though "you people" was more staying in character,much can be gained from more of an outsiders perspective;though it could hardly be otherwise,much of our "alternative" cultural commentary comes from those alienated by our present systems and tends to be somewhat distorted by an inevitable position of victimhood.
I think that "englishness" would be more fully realised through emergent processing and may give more insight into the function of the Morris Men,rather than having them being rebranded as celebrating the festivals of whichever patron saint has been attributed to them.
Yet I have foiled you once more by swallowing the microdot,have a lovely evening ,chaps, Toodle pip.

[Steve Saunders]

I disagree about the inevitable victimhood, in my personal experience, the rasta community is simply awakened/conscious and peaceful, just not engaged in the system. Perhaps this is the minority that proves the rule?

definitely worth using emergence to bring into conscious awareness one's sense of cultural identity ...

[Feralchild]

Thankfully some things have changed somewhat,although back in the day,Rastafarians used to get a great deal of stick from the police,who I'd doubt are too pleased to be dealing with the results of suppressing a worthwhile culture,only to find it supplanted by a bunch of kids barely out of school,but walking about with bags of crack and 9mm. handguns.
Doubtless,we are all victims to some extent,and often not recognising the extent of our own victimhood.
Hopefully,even if it is more a matter of pragmatism than design,we might yet get some little say in the design of our own "democracy".

[Steve Saunders]

IMO the real abomination is 'control' - clients who control/filter their responses to give 'right answers" rather than the real ones, political correctness, law and order, if we impose controls at home we deserve a government as it is, but now we have one that realises its just too costly to control so now we have to find self-regulating and this might be a painful ride for the freaks ... :-)))

[Feralchild]

I think the problem is in the basic mammalian programming of achieving a certain
status,after which there comes a desire to replicate the rest of the world in ones own image,I'd say that it's essential to be capable of differentiating betwen external reality and the default functioning of the persons inbuilt neurological biases.

[Steve Saunders]

Hmm, interesting, if I were to buy darwinian evolution as the absolute truth I might agree, but I do not see it the same way. Evolution may be true now, but before Darwin, or in the cosmology around/before the creation of cause-effect belief systems, was it?

Is not the world around already in one's own image? I am not sure that is the cause - try the 'pulling back' questions.

Differentiating is also hard-wired into neurology - Fuzzy set theory works on similarity and difference, modelled on our neurology, we match similar and different. If some people do not use these functions well, that is down to the structures created through their life. IMO.

[BobGorman]

Digital - Analogue - Abuse - Neglect

If I may briefly return to the original distinction that started this thread, between Digital, discrete events, and Analogue - continuous events, and Mixed some call pseudo-analog, i.e. many repeated discrete events.

One area I have been most interested in is the long-term effects of Neglect. Over the last 20-30 years both the popular & professional communities have studied & concluded that childhood abuse has lifelong lasting consequences. Some nations, states, etc. have even passed laws as to what is tolerable, not tolerable, and what penalties are imposed if you choose the non-tolerable acts and get caught. But this has not been the case with Neglect. One might say Neglect has been neglected.

But thinking about this Digital-Analog distinction has provoked much discussion within the 2 halves of my brain. Trauma, currently, is often synonymous with traumatic events, like beatings, rapes, threats of death etc. and the therapeutic approaches have been largely to find these events, retrieving the emotional states, metaphors storing them, etc. and re-processing those events. Events like rape are clearly discrete events, and there is also the phenomenon of repeated rapes over a long period of time.

But neglect doesn't happen in such nice discrete events, rather it occurs over time, for example never, or very infrequently be held & comforted. Or perhaps being humiliated in school for a decade or more, which could be repeated discrete events, or a continuous attitude that you are stupid, ignorant, and will never learn.

Recovery, also seems to me to have a different focus. Finding the illusive negative message is more challenging, but correcting it is more habit building... Learning to stop for a moment, interrupting your automatic habits, and ask "What do I really want now"? requires breaking one deeply ingrained habit, making a new choice, and repeating that new behavior over, and over, and over until it becomes a new habit.

If others have direct experience with victims of trauma and the long-term side-effects, does this shed some new light on recovery approaches & techniques?

Bob

[Feralchild]

UNCLEANLINESS ADVISORY-This is my take on the issue,and not representative of clean processes.
Whilst trauma can have similar effects to an extent,neglect in children and adolescents can have a dramatic effect on the neurological development of the person,
To my mind,the standard approaches may not be entirely useful if the person concerned has notable deficits in certain areas,and may require some form of skills training to address the deficits.
In the abscence of preexisting problems,it should be possible to get a reasonable idea of what needs to be addressed by correlating the time(s) at which neglect occured with which aspects of psychological functioning should be developing at that age.

[Steve Saunders]

Thank you, Bob for joining in, interesting post.
The habit aspects are cleanly addressed using momentum forms, which deconstruct the old habit and install new ones in-the-moment.
One common habit in adults is to assume that people grow or develop, rather than create structures which constrict consciousness. The result of emergence is the undoing of the structures, including atrophied consciousness. The analogue forms allow people to escape a field, and the neurology can start again, but what has been missed has been missed.

Neglect must have as many forms as abuse I imagine; when does positive neglect cause problems? Like parents not installing social values?

interested to hear more, perhaps in a new thread on neglect?

[Feralchild]

Indeed, a new thread on "other".