Analogue Conditioning

[Steve Saunders]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss and explore the developments that combine the "momentum principle" with conditioning that does not come from defining moments.

David's work on Metaphor, Clean Space (and time), Q4 and emergence, IMO were based upon the model of instantaneous trauma, and upon object-oriented space-time. I call the causes of these traumas "digital conditioning" because it happens instantaneously, or near-instantaneously or through a series of instances.

The momentum work, using inging and emerging moving, story busting etc added another dimension of flexibility to clean language by dealing with moving-ongoing conditioning.

Personally I'm meeting people with issues related to cultural conditioning, to non-local causes, and need ways of working with them that do not fit the space-time-metaphor ways. I'm calling this analogue or "field" conditioning, as an initial name choice for things like the slowly-changing morals around picking-up your dog-mess - 30 years ago no-one was bothered, now it is unacceptable to leave it - this was not an instant change, but gradual, a kind of "analogue social field" that permeated and shifted. Religious and family beliefs might fit some of this conditioning.

So, I'm inviting open comments, thoughts, ideas about exploring this work - I've been trying ideas over the last 2 months in workshops, but want to see ideas from everyone.

The notes from the West Country Practice Group relate to this subject. This subject relates somehow to "autistic-spectrum", "normal", how social codes work, how fashion works, about the relationship between functional pragmatic scientist and socialite; and for me it is fascinating, a whole new territory to explore!

Anyone up for it?

Steven

[Steve Saunders]

Modelling the different worlds of "autistic" and "normal" ...

I have only in the last few months become aware of how different people really are. I naively thought, as a scientist, that other people were mostly like me, accepting others as they are, the odd judgement, but my eyes have been opened ... it seems the world of "the socially conditioned" is vastly different to mine - finally perhaps I can understand political correctness, fashion, brand, image, concern for what other people might think of oneself - a veritable world of exploring how these realities are constructed might help people like myself, from the near-autistic spectrum to relate better to normal, socialised people and vice versa - it seems that because I mostly look and behave like a fairly normal person, a social person will assume I know their social rules, and that therefore I must be being deliberately rude when I flout the said rules. This truth is that I have been blissfully unaware. and it seems I have also assumed wrongly that normal people do not judge much; it seems they judge everything - haircut, perfume, clothing labels and style, house, car, brands, voice tones, social class, etc.

Now I hope that somehow I have not completely offended every social being on this forum, as this is not my intention; I want to understand and I genuinely need your help - please - this can really help austists and nonaustists to communicate between each other, and might make for a real shift in world perception if we can get this right.

I have found the book "eye to eye" as a starting point for seeking to understand this world of social human beings, will anyone help, can anyone help, please?

muching thanking

Steven

[Feralchild]

Though it may be more a description of the "whats" of human social behaviour,a basic sociology textbook would probably be useful.
As for people with autism,whilst they have less grasp of social norms than the average person,the overall differences can be less profound than might be expected by those thinking of them in terms of their
limitations.
Starting from a position of-people with autism cannot assess A by means of B,tends to ignore the fact that non-autistics do not necessarily arrive at B by means of A.

[Corrie van Wijk]

Hi Feralchild,

I'm intrigued by your statement "the fact that non-autistics do not necessarily arrive at B by means of A".

Could you elaborate on that?

Corrie

[Feralchild]

Hi Corrie,
It had struck me that some of the higher functioning autistic people I've met don't seem to have a notably deficient understanding of social issues,despite their intrinsic limitations.
Though the social judgement processes of people with autism may often operate differently to others,thet still involve mechanisms common to (almost)everyone.
Though often people tend to assume that we are primarily logical creatures,much of the assessment and descision strategies operate in other ways.
For instance,the judgement of "rightness" and "wrongness" of things by people with autism can be largely influenced by the emotional valence of the thing,the same is often true of non-autistics,particularly where judgements in a social context are concerned.

[phil]

I admit to having only a BBC documentary level of understanding about autism - and thinking of the popular perception of people designated as being 'on the autistic spectrum' having deficient understanding of social issues could end up having more awareness of same than many who are not so defined, by dint of being deemed deficient and then getting specialised attention in that area :-) Of course 'deficient' is a judgment that comes from the society that regards a person as not conforming to its mores and values. I suppose the only objectively deficient social behaviour in an entity would be one that led to that entity's actual destruction. In a tolerant society the behaviour would need to be very deviant, in a less tolerant society not so much.

[Steve Saunders]

Perhaps the autism aspect of this thread reflects some of the 'not analogue'?

I prefer the 'primordial soup' idea that there is no normal, no autistic, we just have different adaptions, conditioning, developments, learnings and skills, ancestral chains, genetic predisposition and so on. It is all explicable with models that I already have. My interest requested on this thread is only this: "on the nature of slowly changing cultural fields" (first post), with a specificity (2nd post) about the world of social beings.

As this started as a thread as part of my inquiry into cultural fields, I have pondered on the posts. At risk of causing offence, I feel the psychologist are way off my target, the sociologists off my target, and the anthropologists closest to the nature of my interest.

I realise that my request was not specific. I actually want some exemplars, of well-conditioned 'normal' people - to allow me to use clean modelling with the purpose of understanding their social matrix. I would reckon the self-knowing that emerges would be of value to the exemplars.

My purpose is to model first and then to cross-check against my hypotheses, hoping to refine and improve, or replace with them with better hypotheses.

Steven

[Corrie van Wijk]

Hi Ferarchild,

I'm still at loss: how does

"Though often people tend to assume that we are primarily logical creatures, much of the assessment and descision strategies operate in other ways."

relate to:

"the fact that non-autistics do not necessarily arrive at B by means of A"?

Would you imply that 'A' stands for a primarily logical creature?

Corrie

Hi Phil,

"Of course 'deficient' is a judgment that comes from the society that regards a person as not conforming to its mores and values."

If you define deficient as functioning less well in social relations, then anybody can do better or worse, e.g. as a result of proper education.

Corrie

[phil]

If you are looking for models, how about college students, the canon (sic) fodder of psycho/socio/anthropologicalstudies the world over?

Starting a thread on categories - here

[Feralchild]

Hi Corrie,A and B was abstract,I was thinking that assessments/descisions can operate in various ways,and according to the research I've come across,thinking in a social context is not done entirely rationally.
Hi Steve,I agree about the anthropologists;in terms of brain structure and function,we all have the same basic brains as the "lower" mammals,with a little extra to enable us to do abstract reasoning.
The standard mammalian bits often direct a great deal of our actions,with the reasoning centres often being relegated to the role of commentating on behavior,rather than initiating it.
It seems that the mammalian bits contain the instinctive behavioural programs,including the impulse to form social groupings,and this seems to require a certain degree of similarity between members,by various criteria,and the rejection of those who do not meet them.

[Corrie van Wijk]

"A and B was abstract,I was thinking that assessments/descisions can operate in various ways, and according to the research I've come across, thinking in a social context is not done entirely rationally."

do you mean A and B as in an ABC set-up?

Indeed, thinking is not done entirely rationally, and if you mean by B a statement it can be anything.

What is rational for a client depends on their logic and priorities.

[Feralchild]

Hello again,the point I was trying to make is that,though there are structural deficits in the brains of people with autism,this does not always equate to an inability to acquire a functional perspective on matters that they lack some of the usual ways of acessing.
Though some of the cognitive processing done by people with autism may be,slower,less well coordinated and require non-standard ways of accomplishing certain things;as Steve mentioned,it would probably be more accurate to think of people with autism as being at some point on a continuum of behaviour,rather than being in a seperate and distinct class from non-autistics.

[Steve Saunders]

I have enough personal evidence of witnessing clients to suppose that when the mind heals the body follows, subject to the severity of the constraints of the physicality and associated beliefs.

If the neurology is missing some links, they grow new ones when the mind makes its links. It happens, even if I do not have precise neurological imaging proof; the person gains new abilities.

In many aspects the cognitive understanding of so-called autists may be faster and broader.

S

[Feralchild]

One of the main aspects of the condition is that the white matter tracts, which enable transmission between different brain areas,are not properly developed.
As you stated,fresh neurological connections can always be made,and existing ones strengthened.
I suspect that some of the research into the supposed limitations of people with the condition,fails to allow for a somewhat slower processing speed in some areas.

[Corrie van Wijk]

Hi Steve,

"when the mind heals the body follows": how do you know the mind heals first? How does the mind relate to the physical 'body'-brain?

"subject to the severity of the constraints of the physicality and associated beliefs.": how does the physicality relate to the associated beliefs?

"If the neurology is missing some links, they grow new ones when the mind makes its links.": how do you know the mind makes its links and not the neurology?

[Steve Saunders]

chicken and egg ...

e.g. "a client with no REM or deep sleep for 20 years, after-during some turning processing experiences heating and energy in a scarred part of the brain; thereafter they can sleep and have lost a high-crash cycle of many years". many other examples i have seen. I know through experience.

why would the brain make new links without a decision to do it; it makes no sense to allocate the intelligence to the brain, but instead I allocate the intelligence to the mind (the non-real metaphysical aspect of a human being).

non-one can explain sight to me ... "an emergent property of the brain" ... give me a break - that's as good as saying "magic", which it is.

[Corrie van Wijk]

"Hi Steve,

"after-during some turning processing experiences heating and energy in a scarred part of the brain": external and/or internal inputs are processed by the brain, which changes it.

"why would the brain make new links without a decision to do it;": it doesn't decide to do so, it just happens as a result of processing some input.

"no-one can explain sight to me ... "an emergent property of the brain" ... give me a break - that's as good as saying "magic", which it is." : who are you referring to?

Corrie

[Feralchild]

With reference to the NLP metaprogram "terms of reference filter",there may be further useful distinctions in analogue/digital-for instance,a highly externally referenced person may consult several other people for their perspective on a digital event.

[Steve Saunders]

Hi Feralchild,

They might, but the point of analogue/digital is the nature of the conditioning - digital is instantaneous whereas analogue is gradual, and an intermediate form of pseudo-analogue coming from a repetitive series of digital events such that it becomes analogue.

External referencing will be caused by a kind of survival need of giving authority to others or from a dissociative condition meaning the person has no natural access to the knowing required. While self-referencing can be a sign of a missing development, it can also be the sign of clear consciousness.

[Corrie van Wijk]

Steve: "the point of analogue/digital is the nature of the conditioning -

• digital is instantaneous
• whereas analogue is gradual, and
• an intermediate form of pseudo-analogue coming from a repetitive series of digital events such that it becomes analogue."

Have you ever discussed this with David?

[Steve Saunders]

No, you know this insight came AFTER him. It comes from my background pattern-recognising electronic signals of various kinds. When I met him I had an analogue theory of dissociation whereas his was digital, and he never was interested in my theory so it went on hold. Momentum is like the analogue, and he would look blankly at me when i mentioned it - he's not omniscient.

[Corrie van Wijk]

I wonder if 'digital' conditioning, as you name it, is more likely to cause trauma, because the brain recognizes it as different, whereas 'analogue' conditioning, in your language, is more like the frog slowly being boilt.

[MatthewH]

Corrie,

This structure fits the model I have.

The digital conditioning relates to the impingement of a new reality that does not relate to the current / existing reality of the individual. The current reality is 'parked' and the new reality is taken on board. In this 'parked' reality the lost self / inner child resides.

The analogue conditioning is the route back - mathematically going from -1 to 1, through 0 (the cosmological boundary) in increments - to re-connect with the inner child and re-establish those aspects of self that were 'lost' / frozen in time.

[thinking out loud] "because the brain recognizes it as different"

I don't consider the brain is recognising it as different - the brain/mind is adapting or surviving, whilst also holding onto as much of its current sense of the world. It just creates in the moment the new inner reality to reflect the experience (trauma), to make sense of the experience, to classify it, or to re-organise it's self in such a way that that new information becomes a part of the inner reality.

Thank you for providing the impetus for another insight and perspective on this work for me!

[Feralchild]

Whilst I'd agree with you both as regards trauma,there does seem to be an underlying assumption that somewhere in a person's history there is a time of perfect functionality,which is not always the case.

[Steve Saunders]

at or prior to conception there normally is ... else one can trace the ancestral lines of DNA male and female until there is and recode this ...

[MatthewH]

Feralchild - yes I do hold the assumption that there is a time of perfect functionality (State 1)
you seem to hold the assumption that this is not always the case (state 0)

And there we have an example of digital conditioning.

Some other assumptions (also read delusions here - just to link in the other thread) I hold, which underpin this one are:

i) in humanity there are at least two levels of consciousness - the subtle and the objective
ii) the subtle is static
iii) the objective is fluid and adaptable to change (it is also the perceiver and believer of the delusions)
iv) for the objective consciousness to be aware of one state, it must of at some stage had experience of its 'digital' counterpart.
v) the subtle precedes the objective and also the physical
vi) at one point the objective was a perfect copy of the subtle (generally "at or prior to conception")

This is perhaps a more esoteric response than initially intended...

[Steve Saunders]

So, I postulate that there is always a "pristine state" but that one has to know how to find it - thus emergent navigations and momentum/analogue forms.

I also postulate that there is one default "state" and that all others are transient. The default is the "no mind / universal consciousness / love / truth / free laughter" kind of pure beingness.

I am becoming bored of the 'normals' not even bothering to find out that they are asleep - genuinely the zombie movies show the real world as it is - it is time to wake up - "wakey-wakey"

[phil]

'Pristine' will be in the eye of the beholder (perk of the perceiver?). I'm reminded of my early days in events, as manager of a small exhibition touring around Europe for an oil company. Our client had an elevated sense of what 'pristine' should look like when applied to the exhibition stands. After 3 months on the road, in and out of trucks on a regular basis, the perspex boxes in particular were in a decidedly non-pristine state. We tarted them up as best we could; it was always a mildly anxious moment as our client came in on the first day of the exhibition at each venue to check it over. Dave, the truck driver, developed a handy trick to deal with this, which he engaged my help with. When he had polished everything, he wold leave one case with a fairly (not grossly) obvious smear of polish on it. Our client would prowl the exhibition looking for damage and pounce on the offending smear. The game was: he'd point it out to me, then I'd call Dave and say in a slightly admonitory tone: 'Dave, mate, you've missed a bit'. 'Oh, sorry, I'll sort that out right now', Dave would say, producing a duster from his back pocket to restore the exhibition status to 'pristine' in the eyes of the client. Once the latter had found something wrong, he never looked any further or noticed the considerably worse features of the exhibition, including dents, scratches and cracks. Or if he did he decided to play along with our game; a convenient and useful conceit that accepted the inevitable and avoided the expensive.

Now, Steve, don't be rude to 'normals' (whoever you mean by that) - they're a feature of your projection, not of the real world. Wakey, wakey yourself! :-)

[MatthewH]

Whether I am awake or asleep - both realities are equally valid whilst I am in the state of experiencing. I also have a conscious distinction of them both.

Here there are again two concepts / constructs / ideas / points - but for me the really interesting point is the third point, which emerges out of the other two coming into conjunction. Part of this relates to my understanding of Bateson's 'difference that makes the difference' that enables us to experience the world. If we are in State A and have only ever been in State A we are not aware of State A - We move to State B and recognise a difference, something has changed, we then have to create a classification to embody this state. Generally creating a classification of just B, because the State of A hasn't yet been fully realised - When A & B are brought into the same classification, we have right understanding. The goal or End Phenomena of EK.

[Feralchild]

Interesting!

[Steve Saunders]

Rude, I hope not, maybe in the eyes of the perceiver. Seriously how much more of the planet do we have to waste before we cooperate and address the human disease?

Pristine, though, humanly and humanely. Many wrinkles etc will reduce, with people reporting significantly perceived age drops (like 10 to 15 years). So, some wrinkles and grey hairs remain, but metaphysically humpty can be as good as new, with no scratches, muscles and skin regenerates, bone strengthens. That is the point, the fountain of youth can be attained with emergence, living pristinely.

[phil]

I think perhaps I would tweak the description to be "...brought into the same classification, we do right understanding."

I think of it as a continuous/continual process, always new states appearing and being subsumed into the latest understanding; fractal, I suppose, which for me (figuratively at least) bridges the disjunction between digital and analogue: digital in that boundaries and distinctive shapes appear, analogue in that it is ever evolving as new information comes in and has that looping recursive element to it.

[phil]

How much? It's an interesting question. How bad does something have to get before a person acts to heal themselves? Sometimes they just don't, ever.

I suppose it depends on what is keeping system in dynamic balance: 'This is bad and getting worse, but THAT is SO scary that this, bad as it is, seems preferable'.

[MatthewH]

Considering this I would be happy with Being, Doing and Having 'Right Understanding'.

Another descriptor for this continious process is Evolution.

However, when we are looking at the source or history "And where could that come from?", "And what is inside that?" - is Involution.

Analogue would seem to be relational in nature - it is the ordinal or cardinal incremental steps we take in CL/EK processes
Digital as Phil as mentioned, defines the boundaries - or manifests a boundary due to the nature of mind in extreme experiences.
Both forms are creative in nature

I recall a story a friend of told me when he trained in freefall parachuting - due to the over-stimulation of the nervous system in the first series of jumps (digital), the experience has to be done a number of times (analogue) to allow the mind to comprehend and become functional in the experience (right understanding) - I do not recall the average number for this, but my money is on six/seven.

A real life example of Steven's "and an intermediate form of pseudo-analogue coming from a repetitive series of digital events such that it becomes analogue."

[Feralchild]

I'd suspect that is a good analogy Matthew,I remember bungee jumping when feeling extremely tired and having to close my eyes through most of it to be able to cope:though it doesn't help when the others involved insisted on shouting "One two three,bungee" when I had specifically told them not to,it merely meant that they had to wait longer for me to jump.

[Steve Saunders]

The series of digital events I define as "pseudo-analogue" - they appear analogue but the causation and undoing relates to the time series.
Whereas the real analogue is the fields of culture that vary normally slowly over years, decades, centuries, millenia, aeons. E.g. Englishness, Christianity, and relates to cultural cosmological shifts rather than personal ones.

[MatthewH]

Last night I read a quote that seemed to reflect some aspects of this thread and I wish to share it:

From: Gary L Stewart - Awakened Attitude, Introduction and Dedication
'... The key to understanding our problems in our respective quests has to do with our search, our desire, to attain our goals. We only desire and subsequently seek that which we have convinced ourselves that we do not have.
First of all, we would have to realise that before we could seek something we would need to have an idea that that which we sought actually existed. It is here that many of the "mistakes" of the quest are made. Often, the mystic would first begin to define enlightenment and the religionist to define God. Suddenly, the task becomes so much simpler - or so it is thought - "We merely have to attain that which we have defined!"
No wonder there are so many different religious beliefs of definitions of Cosmic Consciousness. What is worse in extreme cases - consider what happens if someone actually attains their definition. The rest of us who are still seeking are suddenly the recipients of a barrage of "answers" which does little more than to confuse or cloud the issue, especially if we have a propensity not to discriminate or, most importantly, not to rely upon ourselves for discovery of Truth.'

[Steve Saunders]

that assumes goal-orientation ... emergence seems to work because it is NOT goal oriented, any goal seems to be at right-angles to the result/end-effect of emerging, and one accidentally bumps into something one never realised one was seeking (i.e. not)!?

[MatthewH]

Steve, just to get some more clarification, I require a little more distinction of your model:

The individual requires some goal/purpose in which to engage prior to running EK processing - accepting that we are presently running a natural set of EK evolutionary processes unconsciously - I am unable to conceive of a situation where someone would run EK processes without having a conscious purpose.

The actual nature of Emergence and the processes are not goal-oriented, this would then relate to the last part of the quote "...to rely upon ourselves for discovery of Truth." - Emergence is experience oriented in the here and now.

Does this relate to your current thinking?

[Feralchild]

The series of digital events I define as "pseudo-analogue" - they appear analogue but the causation and undoing relates to the time series.
Whereas the real analogue is the fields of culture that vary normally slowly over years, decades, centuries, millenia, aeons. E.g. Englishness, Christianity, and relates to cultural cosmological shifts rather than personal ones.

A major problem nowadays is that natural cultural fields have largely been replaced by whatever is being promoted through the mass media.
P.S. Enjoy the festival

[MatthewH]

I take it that is a major problem for the diminishing 'natural' cultural trends. I wonder what will emerge out of the 'new' mass media cultural trend? and out of the 'we want instant information because we don't have time to wait' trend that is flowering in some of us already?

http://comment.rsablogs.org.uk/2010/...t-powers-time/

[Steve Saunders]

re the fields - some may diminish and some media effects happen, yes, but things like 'englishness' take a bit longer ...

re the model - people come on a retreat with desires/objectives, but you know these are the signals of the 'not here and/or not now' aspects communicating, issue-busting these goals etc dissolves all the 'undergrowth' leaving the trees to be seen, and maybe even the forest, and maybe even the whole territory and beyond.

I feel perhaps the key difference is 'cybernetics' - in NLP and in SyM the goal is clarified and then the system aligned to this, addressing blocks etc as they arise, whereas in emergence, their may be a goal at the beginning, but this disappears as the scaling/other forms emerge the real results, which are alignments/integrations/migrations/embodyings of aspects to make the 'wholer' self, ultimately happy/content/blissful/enlightened, but knowing life still happens - before/after chop wood carry water, but the joy in the carrying is the benefit of the journey.

[MatthewH]

Making the wholer self - expanding the realisation of Life - the perception of reality moving towards the actuality?

[Steve Saunders]

as you indeed know it does ... always bewaring the return of trance

[Feralchild]

For that matter,I already have sufficient purpose.I suppose the cultural fields discussion should include noting that our present educational system does virtually nothing to develop reasoning ability,and many people seem to be looking to others to provide meaningful soundbite pronouncements to help cure the dissonance caused by abdicating responsibility for their own thinking,and by extension,pretty much everything else.

[Steve Saunders]

... and thus the sheep are more easily controlled by the wolves in shepherds clothing ...

[Feralchild]

And many others;B.T.W. I'm currently watching Glasto on T.V. and suspect that no prizes will be awarded for guessing the identity of the person with the "I am not normal" flag

[Steve Saunders]

"not me, gov" I took the day out at home due to my legs telling me I'm unfit after a whole day standing around the festi ... however in that crowd it is normal ...

[phil]

There are multiple 'goals' or desired outcomes going on at any time. A useful distinction might be between the stated 'content' goal of a process (e.g. 'I want to be healthy') and the goal of engaging in a process at all (e.g. 'I want to experience the EK process I have heard so much about' or 'I want to deal with one of the many issues in my life').

Steve: talking about 'issue-busting these [not here and/or not now] goals' prompted me to think one could call issue-busting 'goal-busting', if one works to an experimental presupposition that the stated goal is NOT what the person (the whole person) wants otherwise they'd have it. Possible some slight difficulty selling people on the idea that what they want is not what they want.

MatthewH said:

The individual requires some goal/purpose in which to engage prior to running EK processing - accepting that we are presently running a natural set of EK evolutionary processes unconsciously - I am unable to conceive of a situation where someone would run EK processes without having a conscious purpose.

Phil: I can conceive of, say, sitting in a forest, my eyes alighting upon, say, a tree and running EK process on the experience. There's no clear content goal (in my terms above) and there is a process goal (e.g. 'I will learn what I learn', 'Experience the forest', 'Relax in nature', 'feel the soul of the tree' (or whatever fuels your chainsaw) :-)

Perhaps we are also talking different 'degrees' of goal. Short term goals or goals that have not been fully examined and explored often evaporate under said scrutiny, often to be replaced by another. Thus 'I want to be a brain surgeon' can remain a desired outcome for ages until, during focused attention paid to it, the system changes and another goal takes its place or no goal does.

Your clause:

the real results, which are alignments/integrations/migrations/embodyings of aspects to make the 'wholer' self, ultimately happy/content/blissful/enlightened, but knowing life still happens - before/after chop wood carry water, but the joy in the carrying is the benefit of the journey.

looks to me like it's the process goal (again, in my terms above).

There is always some kind of desired outcome. I prefer that word to goal; the former is to me metaphorically more open and neutral and subjective, whereas the latter seems exactly the kind of focus-narrowing, blinkering process that, while often effective in the short-term, blinds us the the holistic, linked, systemic view which we so desperately need in society.

[Steve Saunders]

Interesting post Phil, thank you.

I will reframe what I mean by "goal orientation" - a process like NLP or SyM that develops the goal and then cybernetically works TOWARDS that goal. That is goal-oriented. Whereas emergence has 'starting conditions"' including defining a goal or a problem or 'stuff' generally, or even a story. Thereafter emergence flows with the signals, it is not cybernetically directed TOWARDS an outcome, except perhaps a meta-outcome that the client decides to stop the process, or that it just stops naturally.

Thanks for your post, without it, I would not have clarified the above distinction. ;-)

Saying there is a goal of experiencing a process - no problem with saying that, it is true some people attend retreats just to experience what might happen, very open to whatever (albeit a minority of people!).

Goal-busting, yes used this title a lot in-house, used "****-busting" generally. And yes its a tough sell to offer that a client will be better with a side-effect than their focus of attention - and definitely comes across as arrogant to the potential client - from hard experience!!! :-)

Maybe there is always an outcome, maybe there is a reality where this is not true, I feel we might be into semantics or personal reality truth differences on this one. It matters not to me, now that I have distinguished cybernetic goal-driven process versus emergent process. And boy do I feel better for that!

love Steven