Experiencing the here and now

[Corrie van Wijk]

Corrie: "the difference between cognitively trying to make sense of an experience in the past or making a plan for the future, and experiencing in the here and now."

"Que chacun examine ses pensées, il les trouvera toutes occupées au passé ou à l’avenir. Nous ne pensons presque point au présent, et si nous y pensons, ce n’est que pour en prendre la lumière pour disposer l’avenir." (Blaise Pascal: Pensées, 1670)
(We hardly even think about the present and if we do, we only do that to see which light is cast upon our future plans.) [English is such a nice conscise language!]

There is something about exploring moving while it is happening, probably similar to any other sensation being experienced. But what's the point of exploring the present, unless something is happening the client has to deal with right here and now?

[phil]

And when 'something about exploring moving while it is happening', is there anything else about that 'something'?

* * * * * * * * *

Musings on possible reasons to explore experiencing here and now that occur to me*:

• Out of curiosity
• We live only here and now - worthwhile getting to know where and when we live
• Any 'dealing with' the client wants to do will happen here and now (eventually, IYSWIM)
• It's ALL happening here and now, including all the thoughts, memories, stories, predictions and hallucinations about past and future
• Bringing into awareness an unconscious present experience for the benefit or pleasure that may afford
• Change happens here and now

Phil

* I am musing about exploring here and now generally, not just in a therapeutic context.

[Corrie van Wijk]

J&P in MiM: "Both the client and the facilitator model the client's 'in-the-moment' experience. [...] every memory, behaviour, description, symptom, explanation, problem, solution or 'ah-ha' is an expression of the way the client brings forth their world, which in turn is isomorphic with the way their cognition is currently organised. Whether the client is remembering the past or imagining the future, they are experiencing it in the here and now."

To the brain, every new sensory input is related to what is already there, so it is impossible to make a distinction between past, present and future: a dimension of time is only a mental concept.

[phil]

'a dimension of time is only a mental concept' - well, yes - and I think if one jumps a level, one can put all processing into that bracket. Sensory inputs are data, it's processing that creates information and comparison of that information with stored information creates news. These are categories I heard David use once.

'Working in the here and now' is a metaphor representing the intention of the facilitator - IMO what actually happens is: by the time sensory data has been 'sensed', time has moved on, brought to awareness, time has moved further on, processed for meaning, further still, described, even further still. By the time a client has reported their 'current' experience it is already a past experience, albeit recent past.

By 'inging', is the facilitator sending a message from the facilitator to the client broadly along the lines of the following?

"As you may know (consciously or not), when we talk in words that end in '-ing', we are grouping time-adjacent, similar micro-events (like 'steps') from your very recent past experience into broader categories (like 'walking'). Ms/Mr Client, we are going to direct your attention in such a way as to use that concept to explore your experience and call it 'working in the here and now' or 'current experience'. We think it's worth doing because it somehow seems different (in a way we can't yet describe) to exploring stored memories, even though you would actually experience those memories now in much the same way as the 'current experience' memories."

Phil

[Steve Saunders]

Guys, I believe your perception is still not clear on the inging, here and now and why ...

1. The present symptom is why a person asks for a therapist - because the symptom (signal) is causing too much pain to be experienced any more, the urgency attains a level whereby they contact one of us. This signal/symptom is being experienced now, but it comes from an event not here and now.

2. We have frames of reference in space and time, so my here and now is in another person's past, but its splitting hairs to go where the last post has gone.

3. By bringing awareness to the present signal its job completes and the next signal emerges. As the past is layered, the layers' signals arrive in turn, the whole reflecting the structure of the client.

4. it gets messy if the facilitator intrudes even by thinking, thus simplifying the facilitation by keeping to one question, by gradually not evening asking that once the client's own emergence takes over.

5. It seems to me you're discussing this hypothetically rather than experimenting with a real, live human being.

6. All will be revealed this Sunday from 4 to 5 pm when I present, demo and provide a group experience that will contextualise and actualise the emerging moving inging.

If anyone wishes to learn about emergence then I'll be at the conference both days and will freely share with those who ask.

love Steven

[phil]

5. It seems to me you're discussing this hypothetically rather than experimenting with a real, live human being.

Steve, this is a virtual forum where discussing is all one can really do. I imagine "inging" certainly is a process that requires real, live human beings, presumably physically present with each other (is that a reasonable assumption?). It doesn't mean we can't discuss it conceptually.

Phil

[Steve Saunders]

Indeed one can ;-)

And much was revealed, and we also held an informal emergence gathering with a few folk, exploring the power of 8.

Thanks for coming to the seminar, nice playing with adverbs Phil!

[Steve Saunders]

So I tried starting a retreat with:

"keep moving"
"and as you are moving what knowing is emerging as you are moving" (a few times)
then
"and now what is emerging/happening?" (a few times)

and then left the delegates to continue on their own until they chose to approach me with a verbal communication. Two people spent most of the day just continuing the flowing out of the emerging, with many releases, and overall a few hours of processing engaged all of the delegates. One of them chose to just do this for a few hours a day on their own.

after this and with a few test clients on severe traumas, I am pretty sure that as long as the facilitator can cope with the emotional flows, then this is a great default process for the issues of resolving clients requesting a psychotherapeutic/healing type of work.

I've not tried "inging" generatively yet, but in essence it is a great process for bringing forth intuitions.

Our work has recently been more looking at the whole issue of space-time versus momentum experience in terms of dyslexia and learning. It seems that many people who the education system fails are essentially living in momentum not object-orientation, and so their minds work completely differently to how teachers might expect.

[Steve Saunders]

Hi Corrie,

Well, I learnt that there is little understanding of emergence in the community (with 2-3 exceptions), just a copying of David's work and applying of 6's in other applications.

In terms of progressing I discovered something really important in the emerging moving:

by getting the body moving and then asking "and as you are moving, what knowing is emerging, as you are moving?" a group phenomenon occurred: whereas meditation often has a still body and seeks to get the mind still too thus aligning them both, in this case the moving body starting to move to the pattern of the mind, and thus aligned mind and body by moving as the body adapted to the minds moving - brilliant, serendipitous and beautiful to observe and experience. Proving the inging beyond words!

As usual the overly serious ones abreacted to the work in the group setting - also perfect as I prefer to work with the non-serious!

Also in the open forum area I experimented with emerging using patterns of 8, and it was perfect for those present - they just magically happened to have structures with 8 spaces in between! What a beautiful coincidence that I the facilitator pre-chose 8's and the perfect clients arrived to vindicate 8's. John also did a seminar with 3's - same effect. I know many people may not want to hear this, but David was a master hypnotist and intruded his chosen model on the client for their "self-healing", whether metaphor, space or emergence. And the experiments that John and I made showed clearly the 6's is just another pattern of the F's belief system being reflected by the clientele, for mutual benefit. So nothing wrong with clean or 6's, just another great form of projection for healing purposes.

That was about it for my learning from the conference, but I'm sure others made notes!

Steven

[Corrie van Wijk]

Steve: "the moving body starting to move to the pattern of the mind, and thus aligned mind and body by moving as the body adapted to the minds moving"

That makes very much sense to me in terms of clean space: the space becoming psychoactive and people moving intuïvily according to their feelings, e.g. the metaprogram towards-away from.

[Steve Saunders]

Yes, once the space is active it moves A spontaneously and the F's job is largely done.

[Corrie van Wijk]

That's what David called space becoming your co-facilitator.

I think space is just the medium here, what actually happens that different 'points of view' trigger different memories, which then start to connect within the working memory.

[super_yacht@hotmail.com]

I’m pondering whether the moving like some other techniques is distracting the conscious? The facilitator is producing a trance like state in the client to allow the sub-conscious to emerge the information. [This is different to the hypnosis discussed in another thread].
The gyro, drawing, writing or even the horses might be considered activities of the conscious. While distracted the sub-conscious is allowed to work and explore freely. Our ego and projections get in the way of ‘living in the now’ and allowing real understanding to emerge. Our conscious dismisses creative thought, logical, why do we find a space, how can psyco-activity be?
Only when a (short) time is allowed for our minds to explore with out question can these things emerge. Do the conscious distractions help this process?

??

[Steve Saunders]

IMO Yes - all these processes and approaches are that - NLP/hypnosis - it all uses distraction of the conscious mind with a task while the unconscious does the work.

The cleanest approach thus is one that intrudes least, has the smallest adjacent steps, and works most closely WITH the present symptom?

The benefit of "getting in early" with the starting conditions - starting before anyone is ready to start - is that the distraction works most effortlessly. Just watch Derren Brown! The difference is then being clean with facilitating thereafter!

S

[Corrie van Wijk]

Thank you John, this is really food for thought!

John: "to allow the sub-conscious to emerge the information."

I wonder if only the subconscious would produce emergence: I don't think it matters much where it comes from, it is the connection that brings it about.

[Steve Saunders]

Maybe A is the conscious?
David was very clear than A is the ONLY place from which there is NO emergence - A', B, B', C, D were all places he showed emergence came from, but not A.

So what one is already consciously aware of is not exactly emerged new knowledge is it?

Steven

[Corrie van Wijk]

Steve: "David was very clear than A is the ONLY place from which there is NO emergence"
So what one is already consciously aware of is not exactly emerged new knowledge is it?"

That is because A is a problem space, not because the person is consciously aware of something. If you already know at A how to get to B, it wouldn't be a problem, at least not one you need a facilitator for. Changing perspective (e.g. A1, asking B etc.) triggers other kind of information available in the brain, which at some point might make the person at A aware of a change, which A then interprets and it becomes conscious knowledge.

However, also unconscious knowledge may cause a change and perhaps A will never know what caused it.

[Steve Saunders]

The following are my notes of what David said at the 14/7/05 Emergence/Systems Engineering workshop regarding A...F

"
A is the client as the observer of a space. The person in the NOW, physical posture and all.
B is what is being observed by the person (their focus of attention at the start).
C is the space in-between that holds {A, B} C starts invisible and holds A and B apart. Once made active, C enables communication between A,B and movement to find what is at/around/within B from B.
D is the space that holds {A, B, C}.
F is the Facilitator and Frequency – outside of the client system.
Epsilon is the Emergent Behaviour of the systemic interaction.
Cosmologies hold worlds (typically 6 worlds).
"
David then presented the principles (at the time):
"
Principles

The starting point is to set up the conditions / context such that the symptoms can be successful; the symptoms are the unsuccessful attempts of the system to heal itself. The seed to healing is found in the symptom (the system holds its own cure). The present structure of the system reflects a homeostasis. Perturbing the system enables information to flow, once the space has been made “psycho-active”.

There is no time signature in space. Spaces can have an age, though. Spatial dimensions are important. Structure. Ontological.

Content Free. The word “You” is explicitly forbidden. (This is especially important – complexity, ambiguity, 6 degrees of freedom shifting “you”.)

The facilitator considers himself to be in service to the SPACE.

The precise orientation and body posture is required to access a particular experience.
Slight changes in twist, angle, elevation, range, feet, hands, back, neck, knees of the client observer

F keeps out of the loop – no “I/You” relationship, but one might ask about “whereabouts is /what kind of I” to find the many {I, You, Me, Myself}’s a person has in a particular orientation and how new ones are found through very slight shifts. Among other clean behaviours, keep gestures out of the system.

Phrasing – space between words in space, rhythmic for inner child, tonal marking, voice projection to the space, wording spatial, “respecting the space / information”

2.3 Questions – minimum sampling (see below)
6 sets of questions (to connect to a planar bisection, or that span a space)
Energy transfer through harmonic resonances (voice, 2.3, 6, tonal marking, pace, …)
"

This was when the thinking was all "spatial" not emergent as in the later forms. but already one may see the clues, like "no 'you' ", perturbing the system, resonances, self-engaging the client system.


"

So "A" is not the problem space, "A" is the client experiencing the problem.

[Steve Saunders]

29/11/05: David:
"Every communication has a complete logic that has to be true for the communication to be made.
Ask questions about what is not there but would have to be there or what is unspoken or unrepresented or unvisualised.
"

[Corrie van Wijk]

John: "While distracted the sub-conscious is allowed to work and explore freely. [...] Our conscious dismisses creative thought [...] Only when (a short) time is allowed for our minds to explore without question can these things emerge."

See the thread 'focus of attention'

[Corrie van Wijk]

Steve: "This was when the thinking was all "spatial" not emergent as in the later forms."

See my thread: 'Clean space is not about modelling space' in the Clean Space section.

Any clean process can produce emergent knowledge: clean language comprises complex information into metaphor, thus chunking it and enabling the working memory to process it; clean space downloads (reverse association) information triggered in different spaces and by moving from one space to another connecting them in the present; the iteration of questions causes the brain to think twice, thus inviting it to verify the information.

So I don't see how 'emergent thinking' is different from information as a result of any other clean process.

And an insight need not necessarily be emergent knowledge.

For further discussion see the thread ''Think twice' in the Emergent Knowledge section