Moving Cleanly - or Emerging Moving

[Steve Saunders]

My musings:

if my very language re-measures moving experiences (a nominalisation) into objects then my very language has to be different if I am not to immediately re-measure - to avoid losing the flowing of moving emerging.

So, a completely new language - not even a language - "languaging" is required to enquire and to facilitate - rewording: requiring new languaging for facilitating for emerging moving knowing - wow!

moving from object-oriented (OO) measured language (clean english) to processing moving (english equivalent of native american)

In OO speak: "a" and "the" adjectives have to be eliminated from the languaging, and so do the non-moving prepositions (after all, they are Pre-positions - pre-posterous in moving!), so the languaging is becoming (does "is" staticise/measure?) verbalising "gerunding" as sequences (sequencing) ... and of course its non-stationary so OO minds have real trouble initially grasping the languaging and the meaning - and that's ok, so am relearning to undo OO languaging and move into human being/doing rather than "a human"

Philosophically, life is moving and death is stasis, life is in chaos, death is in order/structure - contrasting "free spirit" versus "establishment". both are part of the whole - moving and location.

Thus maybe new grammaring may be emerging for dealing with moving - not moving - its stuck, repetitively-moving patterns of moving that are needing freeing, the other flowing emerging moving is living. So there are measured locations and measured movings, and its only "un-measuring" that is required for "healing", so its moving from fixed, or periodic moving to non-periodic movings - tapping fingers to flow, eye tics to smooth movement of focus, limping to walking.

so, after a physical trauma the body freezes muscles and adapts, and after mending the muscles unfreeze but the adapted postures and movings have affected the habit and the emerging moving is to undo the habit. (Like Feldenkrais but not manipulated by an F, learning by the clienting).

so, to make sense in an OO way I measured into nominalisations and OO form the moving trauma, and after understanding I can unmeasure by emerging ...

How does this relate to left brain, right brain?
Maybe there is something here for practices that rebalance left-right?

Once all structures are un-measured, there only is moving, and a new languaging is required by occidental human beings to stay unmeasuring and in flow with life ... well that's a start for Sunday!

Steven

PS The indo-european languages are the direct cause of losing the Tao - when we speak we measure into object-oriented forms due to the spatial nature of the languages of Western Europe. Now, are there other languages (other than native american) that work in flow (maybe Tibetan?)

This does indeed go back to Adam and eating of the tree of knowledge - knowing comes from measuring.

It is true therefore, that before knowing or outside of knowing is Eden.

So Eden is the Judao-Christian form of enlightenment?

[Steve Saunders]

"Emerging Moving" - WORK IN PROGRESS !!!

Throughout this article, the thinking style may vary from object-oriented (space) to moving (flowing) and go through intermediate states. The thoughts being thunk are on the edge or over the edge of the cosmological boundary of English as we have known it. I accept no responsibility for the effects reading this post might have!

Emerging Moving is the newly forming art of undoing stuck movements. Whether it can also undo stuck inner movements like thought processes or repeating life patterns is yet to be explored! Well, what a thought; this might open up a few avenues of exploration!

Introduction

Just as DG transitioned from Ericksonian Hypnotherapy to Grovian Metaphor to Clean Space to Emergent Knowledge, so we have to transition our thinking from spatio-emergent to moving emerging. Why address moving? Because there are symptoms in moving that relate to inner child recovery. Because a new language is requires to keep people in the now; occidental languages object-orient the world thus taking people out of flow the moment they start speaking or thinking in words. An English equivalent of Native American is required to enable communication without the trauma of measurement. In other words, our very language undoes the good work of personal development designed to create “at-one-ment”.


1 How to transition from spatial, object-oriented thinking into moving thinking.

So the problem is a cosmological boundary - people do not even know they speak and write in object-oriented form. English grammar relates subjects to objects through prepositions and the actions (verbs) being enacted by the subject on the object. Even NLP and its derivatives talk of “subjective experience”; a limit in its own right. So the first thing to do is to start moving and talking while walking (the emergent walking processes that I developed).

1.1 Spatio-Emergent Interrogation of Movement

The following questions interrogate the information encoded in movements, from a subject-object perspective.

And what does that [finger/tapping/gersture/movement/leg/...] know?
And what else does that know?
as often as needed - it will change form or stop at some point.

And where could that [movement] have come from?
recursively to find the source

And what does this way of [walking/moving/being] know?


1.2 There is more than one kind of measurement - its not all “space-time”

From Quantum Physics we have a universe made from two kinds of measurement: location in space and/or time and momentum (movement). and the human brain measures location in one side (left) and movement in the other (right)! Clean Space and DG’s Emergence unmeasured location systems. Clean Motion (the starting from Space name for Emerging Moving) addresses undoing stuck movements.

Oh my goodness, in moving is there a subjective experience? Yes. Is there a subject-object experience? Maybe No. Maybe the ABCDEF world is not a relevant model to emerging moving.
Oh my goodness me. How on earth do I think about this now?


1.3 The limitations of English

In considering grammar to make the best forms of clean and emergent question I was wondering how to make best use of adjacency WITHIN a question. And this had led me to change David’s question “and where could that have come from?” to “and that could have come from [where/what/when/who]?” which is more accurately adjacent to the navigation sequence required by the client to get to the answer. At the same time I was wondering about movement and different languages and their different ways prepostions (pre-postiions) indicate spatial relationships, and I realised there were no pre-verbs; nothing to indicate the relationships between movements. So, as and while and during serve as temporary pre-verbs for my exploration.

I realised that Native American is all process (verbs in gerund form - “ings”) so their names are moving” crazy horse, sitting bull, running bear, dances with wolves ... Therefore their thinking is momentum-oriented not object-oriented, so they are not materialistic or needing of anything other than that which is required in the now. Hence, when they say “white man speak with forked tongue”, they do not mean the surface interpretation of “snake” but that white man’s language fragments self and other. By creating I and you pronouns we fragment and separate and make ourselves not at one; we project into/onto the other person with the “you” form. So, I wanted a complete replacement for present pronoun-form English, but nonetheless something easily learnt by present English speakers.

So the delivery of emerging moving will be using the verbalisation of native american - makes sense as its already a flow-form language. The first trials will go with this, anyway!


1.4 What are momentum pre-positions?

Pre-positions measure location in space time and identity. Movements are time sequential or time parallel or time asynchronous. Movement prepositions might be better named pre-movements. Could this be Impulse or Impact? No - we have no word; intention, volition, will maybe for future-oriented movements (actions/verbs). Pre-verbs would be the grammatical form of description, but that staticises the moving; so “pre-moving/pre-acting”?.


1.5 Moving Questioning: from an objecti-oriented perspective

Momentum Questions come from the form:

“As you are ...ing, what could that ...ing know?”
“Keeping moving, what are you knowing as you are moving?”
“As you are moving, what knowing is emerging as you are moving?”

The “as” brings in a “with a movement” form of preposition.

The “are ... ing” construct maintains a present tense gerund relating to the experience now

“while, during”; these are ongoing temporal prepositions (pre-verbs). During implies a past event so as and while are the most useful momentum prepositions.

“how, which” can also be used in question forms - but I have yet to explore how!


2 Emerging moving through gerunding

Normal English: Multi-tracking comes from New Code NLP; states of awareness with many parallel streams of awareness and consciousness all operating in parallel. Clearly a subject-object perception has significant problems tracking and maintaining such ways of being; hence the teaching of juggling by Grinder.

I wish any who follow this path to realise that the momentum experience can only happen with the complete absence of location experience. And so the transition may be strange, and the experience of emerging moving possibly new. I do not even know if there is an easy way between the states of being known as “subject-object” and “flowing” because we learnt no words to describe the flowing because our parents were dissociated into subject-object. This is the cosmological boundary of the material world, of physicality. In the world of flow, time is unmeasured as is space, and so all is in the now. The world of now is the world of flow, of living in momentum not in space. Relationships and old knowings will be largely useless in this universe. Go spend some time with Native Americans to even have a chance of being with humans acclimatised to living in the now. And even these statements are incorrectly languaged - intentionally - in respect of the momentum (moving) experience.


clean Language becomes: languaging cleanly; becoming languaging movingly

emergent knowledge becomes: becoming emerging knowing (F) (or knowing emerging: A);

clean space becomes; becoming moving cleanly; becoming emerging moving

NLP becomes; becoming neural languaging programming; becoming neural-networking languaging programming; becoming embodying languaging reprogramming

when something can move it can emerge, when it is in stasis an impulse or a series of impulses are required to enable moving to start happening and then emerging can become flowing.

This world of moving could be as large as the worlds of NLP, space, metaphor and emergence put together! Blimey, I’m getting one hell of a reframe today! New language, new process equivalent of the tissue box, new process equivalent of delivery and wording, new F, moving equivalent of “relationship”; if there is one!


2.1 Gerunding Transititioning (Moving English-speaking)

What could be equivalent to the ABCDeF?

Well, there are now 2 purposes for the new english; first to facilitate emerging moving, and secondly but perhaps more importantly to keep whole people whole - in moving not in subject-objecting.

2.2 Considering the former purpose: emerging moving

Is there even a space, no there is not a space around momentum; the measurement of momentum genuinely transcends space-time, so can I be fully in momentum and here at the same time - no. I can be nearly here and nearly moving at the same time, or here or moving. There is no other in a fully moving experience; there is only moving.

A momentum measurement is a repeated movement like drumming fingers, eye tics or pacing up and down, or a useful pattern like beating eggs by hand. Undoing the moving measuring requires emerging.

So, in English this is “one process interacting with another process”; transferring for transference? Emerging the knowing from the repeating moving, changing moving as unloading.

Example transcript (real):

inducing moving sickening falling sleeping floating hurting nauseating paining hurting dying willing dying spasming rolling straining aching griping hurting blurring groaning moaning writhing aching swelling glanding sicking paining ouching aaarghing uerrgghing eye-rolling releasing thirsting quenching crying saddening heartaching kidneying filtering wristing bettering gghing headaching footaching ankling wristing arming elbowing heading sicking squirming breathing yawning distracting bettering aching going relaxing shouldering arming blading necking heading stomaching glanding folding oking more-ing sleeping heartaching ankling sleeping.


2.3 Considering the latter purpose; “staying now-ing”

The very use of english language and grammar instantly forms subject-object scapes and projects self-other experience. So there has to be the new languaging:

Speaking, communicating, exchanging as interacting being humanising processing coupling singing and healing interflowing and emerging changing flowing into expressing healthing enlightening deminding feeling being swimming in moving.

Moving into flowing languaging inging and inging and inging.


loving Steven-ing!

[super_yacht@hotmail.com]

My 2 cents worth.

1 How to transition from spatial, object-oriented thinking into moving thinking.
One of the benefits of content free and information led sessions is that you can encourage interpretation in the client without them verbalising it.

1.3 The limitations of English


Steve said; ‘By creating I and you pronouns we fragment and separate and make ourselves not at one’.
Is it not the other way around we fragment and the pronoun results?
When we ask ‘how old could that (pronoun) be?’ we are actually identifying what age that fragmentation occurred? The next question ‘& what could that (pronoun) be wearing, is anchoring the identification with the pronoun (or fragmentation) then scaling or chasing is looking for more information around that fragmentation to resolve it.

1.5 Moving Questioning: from an objecti-oriented perspective
As you are ...ing, what are you knowing?”

I agree with Phil ‘Clean Motion’ does sound like toilet humour or may be its just me being unclean LOL

Cheers

[Steve Saunders]

Yes it is more correct to say we fragment and thus create the pronouns. Thanks for the refinement.

Yes indeed : clean motion is no longer the working title; instead the title has evolved:

Moving Emerging and Emerging Moving
or
Emerging Knowing (F) and Knowing Emerging (A)

"Re-Moving" is a new candidate title ... it comes from thinking that actually all was moving before measurement (fragmentation) and so therefore the work is to restore the moving - therefore "Re-Moving". Which could be just as bad toilet humour and even worse it is re-moving the measurements so its a great mulri-meaning joke title - almost in the same category of self back slapping as Phil's Clean Moves!

Thanks for chipping in. Oh, by the way, I tried out this "ME&EM" ("Me n Im" phonetically!) on a volunteer today - phew its fast!

So WDIKN?

Steven

[phil]

How about ME-ME-ME! Jesting, just joking.

I think Moving Emerging is okay as a title, though it isn't very rhythmic - Moving & Emerging? However Emerging Moving reminds me of a niggle I have always had with EK and the use of the verb 'to emerge'.

I think of emerge as being intransitive, not taking an object, that is, 'A property emerges' NOT 'The facilitator emerges a property'. The latter implies that the F is controlling the process, taking a role beyond that of a facilitator/midwife, stepping into the gown of a surgeon performing a caesarean section.

AE about controlling?
F controlling makes the process non-clean.

[Corrie van Wijk]

Sorry Phil, that I didn't cheer you rightaway: CLEAN MOVES IS BRILLIANT!

(He's a jolly good fellow, he's a jolly good fellow, he's a jolly good fellow, and so we all agree!)

MOVES means that as a facilitator you make a conscious decision, after you thought it over carefully -- it may a strategic or a tactic decision -- but you have a CLEAN goal in mind: to enable the client to explore his or her brain, map it or enable it to make unconsious connections, from which a solution to WWYLTHH emerges.

BIG HUGS!

Corrie

[Steve Saunders]

Hmm Phil,

Naah, the F is merely the catalyst for the client to emerge that which reuires to emerge.
The less F can do the better and the quicker and more complete and permanent. IMO!


cheers Steven

[Steve Saunders]

Initial emerging words:

As all measurement is interrupted moving, re-moving is the final state of completion. Then, maybe the re-moving is the most powerful technique yet? To get it moving again it needs wobbling - emerging? From stuckness to slight movements to movings to emerging flowing?
Feldenkrais manipulates the stuck to moving and so does EK questioning by the F.

The next step is to explore the HISTORY / ROOTS

1&2WCTHCF?

EM comes from MC from CM from exploring body movement through introducing dance, feldenkrais, massage and bowen as complementary activities during retreat.

3&TCF Sarah Kent asking me how to get in more movement work and her interest in 5 rhythms dance. (Oct 06)

4& before that I was constantly bringing momentum to David as something to explore

5& before that I recall Penny & Jmaes Clean Space workshop in late 2004 when I went to James and said that I needed clean space-time because I felt that there was lots of info in pacing up and down rather than staying in a space.

6& before that I was in a zoo watching a tiger pace up and down (4 years old) and while David got that I “went into the stripes” he missed that the movement went into me. (Hull workshop on Emergence - mixing clean worlds and emergence and Inner Child, 2005).

So “physician, heal thyself” - I had to create EM (ME!) because no-one else was going to F my signals for me.

So, going “meta”, I now realise the stages of emergence of EM: first a few years of getting into relationship with it (Saturday), then exploring what I knew from what was available (Sunday), then exploring moving (Monday) then the context (Tuesday - yesterday’s post) and then waking up this morning with “the roots ringing in my ears”. And out walking the patterns became obvious - and I recall that DG and I would go on walks and lots would emerge in terms of understanding on those walks, and that brainstorming went best in pubs or walks or standing about, but never sitting in armchairs or office chairs! So, implicitly more moves when moving, so EM through bodily moving is absolutely essential.


Pause for understanding: &WDIKN?

So now I can pause and ponder what I know. DG used to move B in GM. The universe is complete with both location and momentum as measurements and life flows most livingly when there are no measurements. And I am on the verge of a new science and art of F?
There is no need for the F in EM - just get the person moving and its all over to them. Recalling the Clean Motion session in December, I was not asked once for a question or any intervention the whole time the processes were running; there was lots of “cooking” of delegates as they reconfigured. So EM really is great for de-measuring and re-moving measurements!

An emergent property of getting to the end of stage 5 of 7 (or 4 of 6 is one starts at zero) is seeing the subject as it is for the first time. Seeing it clearly, no longer befuddled by being trapped within its matrix. This allows a new vision to be created. As all life is moving until measured into objects/locations, all trauma is measurement into location or repeated movements, including long-time patterns in life. So, what’s most efficient and least intrusive and most painless way of effecting the releasing of the measurements?

Everyone has a unique trauma and only they have the keys to its complete resolution. So the client does have all the resources in the system.

What does F have? F has knowledge of space-time and momentum measurement processes and the forms that can lead to the undoing of the measuring. As ALL measurements are interrupted movements - shock interruption and also the interruption of not understanding something - the evidence of completion is smoothly moving human being, flexible and bendy.

In terms of communicating with other people, the elimination of pronouns is a good solution to minimising inter-projection. Recalling that DG would not use <names> or pronouns unrtil introduced by the client this is merely an extension of this philosophy to include the “you” in the questions. Thus, an initial communication happens, and a question is then asked of the form

“and what knowing is happening [with those words / in that movement]?”

will stay longer in this pause and then move into developing a new vision for something yet intangible.

love Steven

[Steve Saunders]

a thought form in its very early and therefore easily destroyed stages

ideas from different areas emerge:

a) tyranny of the client (stalking with repeating signals) - like I kept on bringing momentum to David, and others pursued him the inner child not understanding why he did not get the signal - same with me; they know I should get the signal but I'm not yet omniscient!

b) moving sound - Christoffer de Graal, Emerging Voice (shower), emerging singing, sounds moving feelings (yesterday) smells - VAKOG6 - all senses can be associated/dissociated into in combinations. Emerging/Emergence goes across them all - momentum or location.

c) Ericksonian hypnosis, architecture and clean space, projection, transference and counter-transference, EK, metaphor, moving sound and moving emerging.

d) asides and non-sequiteurs - "business" and "outside" the F room - its where the signals come out most.

more later, its still "loading B", this one! ;-)

[phil]

I mean that neither client nor facilitator emerges anything.

News emerges as a result of systemic interactions within client's system.

If the facilitator is not being clean, news emerges as a result of the client's AND the faciltator's system.

IMO

[Steve Saunders]

Hi Phil,

Mmm yes - the emergence happens; if there is flow it happens for both; often we work on our stuff in parallel with clients working on theirs; sharing the journey. And at times we do not. Increasingly I see how the client is showing me something I need to learn; and I'm starting to move from feeling tyrannised by the story and looking forward to it! This morning, I used a very very dirty "tell me more" meta-driver - worked great!

Mmm. It's strange how often the accidentally intruded blunder opens a pot of gold for one or the other or both - unclean begets clean emergence. A poked button reveals a signal leading to un-measuring and healing. Sometimes it pays to be dirty.

Mmmm. But again, what is clean; no outcome, no conscious outcome, no unconscious outcome, a meta outcome - the client gets what they get/needed/wanted? Minimising the reality intrusion, conscious or otherwise of the F into the client's system.

My clean credo is:
"Minimum pain, minimum intrusion, maximum ease, maximum self-engagement of client, TOTAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE CLIENT AS THEY ARE."

Mmmm. It's funny how with a client if they know you have had the same issue (kind of) as them how much more relaxed they become and how they settle into resolving what needs to be resolved.

Mmmm. Sometimes the client only knows they are accepted when some transference occurs!

Mmmmm. Rules are made to be broken; we've probably all experienced David's humour during the pause points. There is a dance at play. A lot happens between opening the door and starting a session - if not everything of importance has already happened in the first few seconds, well before its supposed to start!

Mmmm (by the way this is the meta-driver in this post!), not only questions drive emergence!

Mmmm and what was I writing at home while you were posting:

"Signals, inter-projected measurements, mutual-coupling; its the interaction of observer and observed; both are affected by the measurement, so both require un-measuring. It’s a consequence of the duality-basis of subjective experience; mutual projection, mutual transference, mutual fragmentation. There is something to learn for both parties in interactions."

Mmmm - indeed mutual coupling and decoupling for learning required through the collision of human atoms and human molecules - we all are here for each other, and learning emerges when the wise open their ears to the lips of fools. Aye, we need each other my friend.

love Steven

[Corrie van Wijk]

"moves are things in chess ..." (Steve) ... and so say all of us!

f makes clean moves, and whether or not that results in an emergent solution for the client, depends on how well this move helps the client's system to keep going.

[Steve Saunders]

A clean move is an illusion; if F moves then it is a move by F, and it has an effect on the client. The F has an effect however "clean" F poses to be.

The adjective "clean" suggests a clean and a dirty classification. How clean, is one thing cleaner or dirtier than another? How do you know what is better or cleaner?

An interaction occurs. With the best insight knowledge and wits and intuition, F makes a move. As you say Corrie, a good move works WITH the symptoms, to help them do their job better; a bad move reduced momentum and maybe disrupts the process, potentially irrevocably losing connection from a client's here and now to an aspect of a client's system.

Like a child on a swing, there's a time to push to increase the swing heights and a time that disrupts. Too fast and the child becomes scared, too off-time and the child wobbles, too slowing and the child becomes bored.

The child has asked to go in the swing, the child says when it wants to get out. As long as the pushing of the swing paces the childs needs, the experience is most joyful and least painful.

The questions for F include:

"how can I be as homeopathic as possible with this client?"

"what is the symptom that I am aiding to do its job?" (are we allowed to consider that F might aid A?)

"does the client even need me to do anything?"

"how can I apply the minimum dose principle?"

F makes moves when F acts. They all influence the client'sc system; some influences appear to be more beneficial than others. So, "F moves".

What would happen if F did not move?

and then what would happen? (6 times)

[super_yacht@hotmail.com]

WDIK?
I know like a lot emergence its dam hard to practise, as we have found. To actually focus on practising ‘moving’ is something I have not managed yet. I thought it would be easier outside, just asking one the moving questions when appropriate. Of course that’s my intrusion.
I’ve found it easier to ask ‘& what does that moving know….? When the client is actually in motion, like walking a distance rather than pacing between spaces. It seems more appropriate to ask ‘& what does the space between [A] and [B] know?. Although, here they are observing from 2nd position and usually static.

&WEDIK?
Its work in progress, so something new will emerge as I work with it.
&WEDIK?
There is certainly a different quality to the experience when the question is asked while moving, compared to observing.
&WEDIK?
It changes the whole dynamics of a session making the static [B] lose its importance the whole session becomes mobile which in its self will take on other learning’s /understanding for a client. Rather than a couple of simple questions there is a (possible) a whole new series.
&WEDIK?
I’m still working on what I know with out trying to learn a new process?
&WEDIK?
I happy with that
………………………….

Cheers

[Corrie van Wijk]

Steve: "A clean move is an illusion; if F moves then it is a move by F, and it has an effect on the client. The F has an effect however "clean" F poses to be."

I agree, even a clean move is an intervention. We use 'clean' as opposed to other therapies, e.g. cognitive psychotherapy, that assume that clients are wrong and need to be 'corrected'.

Steve: "Like a child on a swing, there's a time to push to increase the swing heights and a time that disrupts. Too fast and the child becomes scared, too off-time and the child wobbles, too slowing and the child becomes bored."

Well, this is the most beautiful metaphor I ever heard about clean, sounds Grovian.

Thank you Steve

Love,

Corrie

P.S. I once went shopping with David for revolving chairs, that's how I found out about the effect of changing dark and light. But more importantly, being swung was part of it as well.

[phil]

In my post http://www.cleanforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383 in the Clean Space forum, I say

I have always had a sense that the Clean Space process question 'find a space' is misnamed. For me, 'space' is what we move around within and 'place' is a 'where' within that space.

Moving happens in relation to space and time: no time and matter is still; no space, no matter so nothing moving.

Steve, I can't find the reference in the forum where I think you were conceiving movement separately from space, am I right? If so, could you explain your thinking on that?

[Steve Saunders]

Quote: Phil: Steve, I can't find the reference in the forum where I think you were conceiving movement separately from space, am I right? If so, could you explain your thinking on that?"

Hi Phil,

Different perspectives - crossed wires - clearly moving is the operator in Clean Space. I do not separate movement from clean space. What I do separate is the two forms of measurement:

Momentum is what I say is different from location in terms of measurement - in other words trauma is either somatised into movements (stuck moving pattern) or located where the focus of attention was. This comes from Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle - the observer can measure one or the other but not both; and the same applies to human experience - I take note of your Newtonian world view, but then that world view is subject-object in nature - forces acting on objects like gravity or levers, so its already taken a location-measuring approach.

The Object-Oriented language of English enforces a structure not present in babies!

So, I really welcome your exploring of the "inging" because that is a momentum experience!

I hope I've explaining my thinking - at least a little?

love Steven

[Steve Saunders]

Archaeology and ancient healing practices: theatre, psycho-drama.

No, this is ready.

1SWDIKN?
Signals, inter-projected measurements, mutual-coupling; its the interaction of observer and observed; both are affected by the measurement, so both require un-measuring. It’s a consequence of the duality-basis of subjective experience; mutual projection, mutual transference, mutual fragmentation. There is something to learn for both parties in interactions.


2SWDIKN?
Krishna danced all the time; Sufi’s spin, Gurdjieff taught dance and described himself as a teacher of dance. Chanting and singing create patterns of smoothly moving voice. Yoga makes smooth body movement, meditations make smooth awareness movement, Native Americans dance to commune with nature; and so do old Tibetan spirit rituals involve dancing.

3 theatre, opera, ballet, necropolis, bereavement recovery, tragedy, comedy - laughter,

4 joining the dots of the therapies
Projection jointly arises from a mutual coupling of two people entering into an interaction. What happens to a “clear” person when they meet another one? They get projected-on; a newborn baby does what those around require through acting on the convolution between their body and external projections giving rise to emotion to inform action. This may be strange but is fine unless the baby receives shocks or incongruences, whereupon measurements start to stack up. Mind arises to address the understanding necessary to enable un-measurement to complete. Too many lacks of understanding and mind becomes a permanent fixture! The mutual coupling of transference in projection means that in undoing a measurement both victim and perpetrator require healing. Where do people go when they measure: why precisely where their focus of attention is. Similarly, when emotionally porous the energy of the other infiltrates to where its focus of attention is.

So hypnosis was designed to create states of mind where information can be retrieved and the requisite learning made - Erickson’s philosophy was that all a person had missing was a key learning; enable the learning and the person becomes functional; this relates to attaining the right understanding proclaimed by Buddha as the path to enlightenment. Metaphor and story as well as learning tasks were Erickson’s two chief ways, through the art of hypnosis.

So, David was a master of hypnosis; for anyone in doubt just listen to his voice; every single clean question is a hypnotic induction. He initially brought together the hypnosis, metaphor and the navigation to recover the aspects of self and other left in the measurements (Q2); these were the tools of the trade he acquired. The time regression ways he replaced with pulling-back cosmological work (called Q4). David also introduced the “cosmological” boundary concept from somewhere; that which separates the present self from the previous self (ultimately the real client). While it is a self-evident idea in hindsight, what brought about his search. Necessity being the mother of invention, clients that did not respond to approaches or who could not attain their desired results with the current approach, would have been triggers for seeking answers and reasons.

He then brought in his prior experience of architecture - space - and adapted the work accordingly (Q3). The conversational pauses (Q1) represented the ordinary experience of the present self. Why did David introduce space. One aspect was the sheer F skill required to F the clients using the GM approach; it was difficult to transfer to others, and it was clearly wearing the facilitator out. Efficiency and variation and seeking to address aspects which maybe were difficult for the GM way sponsored this development. It required the emerging of a spatial thinking and questioning; the spatial thinking was already present, so the development was realising the geometries of foci of awareness, and seeking to place and arrange the connection between the body and the disembodied aspect (child without). From this emerged clean space movement and spinning.

David had six worlds between present self and the cosmological boundary going back to his earliest work. The 7th world contained the child before the present cosmology (Q4). Coming across the concept of 6 degrees of separation, he immediately realised the correspondence of within and without and realised that if this concept were true, then he could start to navigate across worlds consistently using patterns of six. From this came: the geometric start and the spatial navigation. From that came the emergent loading start and the emergent navigation.


5 What are the key differences between the GM, CS and EK?
Increasing efficiency/effectiveness, transferability and cleanliness. “Cleaner than Clean” was his motto for EK. Each new development reduced the F projection - less questions, less leading questions, less choice of questions. Eliminating F is one ideal solution to the problem of polluting the client from F, but only if the client can cope with self facilitating.

Another solution is to create an F that does not project. This would be an unmeasured F: one in flow-momentum.

6 Moving is the solution of Krishna, Tibetans, Sufis, Gurdjieff, Feldenkrais and also Clean (in GM B moves to A, in CS, A move to B, in EK, A or B or both can move).

SWDIKN?
Theatre (enacting), dancing, moving, singing, moving is providing the forming of emerging underpinning un-measuring re-moving the unmoving.

1SNWCH?
The divine spark of connection between A and B (spatial adjacency)
connecting through moving through now-ing the moving with divining sparking dancing singing laughing (moving adjacently)

English mixing appropriate object-subject relationships and moving pronoun-free. So where nonviolent language removes the “you”, the concept is extended and the language reduced by also eliminating the “I, we, me, my, those, people, myself, your, yourself, us, one, oneself, <names., <nicknames>, <titles>”. This is contrived and to impose it violates the need of the “not here and now”, so its something to use once there are no more pronouns. Pronouns will still be created spontaneously in response to external stimuli, and ideally then dissolved / dematerialised /de-objectified.

2&NWCH? & now what can emerge?
stopping driving with emergent-space questioning and starting driving through emerging moving questioning now-ing processing so manifesting momenting freeing losing wording moving communing being losing selving one-ing.
This leads to stopping typing as the relationship deconstructs; the momentum stops and the person is free of emerging the moving. Cool.

3&NWCE?
Is the numbering of these emergent phases OCD? So can I relieve my OCD though emerging my moving, letting finding experiencing braining trancing (I need Josie to type as I’m trancing out)

4 The dog lives in the now. there is only now. There is no ‘rest’ (projection/illusion)

Sleeping, eyeing, gurgling, sneezing, weleasing, woDavidering, laughing, ow - elbow, oh, Jesus wepting, exhaling, scratching, thinking, preferring, comparing, stomaching, stroking, kneeing, hipping, thighing, caressing, catalysing, heeling, wristing, glanding, yukking, (brings in to the now all the pain that’s been placed in the past, to be flowed out rather than cut off from)

The facilitator has no option but to enter momentum releasing with the clients, because it’s the mutual interacting hypnotic effect. (****). This could be quite tough on a facilitator who wants to avoid their issues! It’s recovering so much so fast. The system seems to be able to take it though - it’s allowing it all to flow and recapitulate, which is what the whirlygig would do. We don’t need the new whirlygig. Yes, we do. The whirlygig is a way of doing this without involving the facilitator so much. People come for mutual learning. There’s no chance of the facilitator running out of stuff, because they have stuff relating to every other person on the planet.

5 I’m only putting the number on to healing reading clarity for understanding emerging patterning. The mutual interacting of facilitator and client becomes a dance and both entrance themselves in emerging the knowing and releasing the stuck emotions, physical feelings, movings, thoughts, gestures and other things requiring emerging releasing, recapitulating the symptoms.

6 &now what is happening
taking actions to express and trial the new forms in the forthcoming retreat that starts tomorrow - what perfect timing! I’ll be off the forum probably for a couple of weeks unless I log the trials daily late at night.

Steven

[phil]

Thanks for explaining what you mean.

To explain my statements better, it isn't that I only have a Newtonian world view. My point is that that is the world in which we (you, me, everybody) operate in on a daily basis, the same world where where people want to experience the healing that you aspire to facilitate.

Conceptually it is interesting and valid IMO to explore the world beyond our unaided human senses, e.g. matter as not-solid, made of a matrix of energetic interactions, interwoven with space and indirectly the learning thus gained can be translated back into Newtonian sensory space.

IMO while understanding those concepts can indirectly and eventually have benefits in our daily lives, it won't make the landing any less painful when we fall out of a tree. It's that world where people wishing/needing to be healed will feel the symptoms of improvement.

Re measurement:

I agree that the Heizenberg's Uncertainty Principle metaphor-maps pretty well from particle physics on to motion in Newtonian space-time, where it is possible to measure accurately either location or velocity but not both. Like all metaphors, though, it simplifies and leaves out certain aspects of the experience being represented. The big omission in this case is the human factor.

When we work with people and not particles, there are other factors to take into account. I wonder whether intention/volition, where they have placed their attention, communication, patterns of behaviour (like walking) may permit quite reliable predictions to be made about moving, both before and during the moving.

I think another factor worth considering in relation to movement is direction. Yes, to be completely accurate and scientific, when measuring location, there is no measurable direction because there is no movement at the moment of measurement.

Again though, in the human domain, a person facing north, half-way through taking a step is very likely to continue north, at least until some nes of difference emerges (like a wall or a missing manhole cover!)

So I wonder if there is some value in considering vector, when discussing movement, that is, movement/momentum/velocity coupled with a direction.

[Steve Saunders]

IMO:
Vectors come of their own in the full clean space and in the spinning for sure.

Polar coordinate use distance azimuth angle and elevation angle to define vectors. For us humans, these are really useful and a core part of David's use of Clean Space and of spinning.
Lucas Derks Social Panorama model could be seen to be based upon this system, from a spatial point of view.

Regarding movement (an objectified form of moving) then a vector would be interesting if you wished to ask about what the directions of moving know. A vector is again a measurement of direction coupled with magnitude (e.g. distance). I am unsure how it would help the moving emerging work, although I can see how it might be a most interesting set of variations to Clean Space. I'll leave that to you my friend ;-)

Regarding momentum - moving interacting ... the moment I move into the momentum thinking objected thinking disappears and typing stops ... its a parallel universe and a way in is gerundising objects and verbs and eliminating pronouns, concepts like vectors do not exist or would get in the way - the client-facilitator relationship dissolves in moving emerging - and yet I feel its really clean work! Hyper-clean!

As usual, my suggestion would be to play with the gerundising and find what you start using, its not something to be thunk about ...IMO!

Cheers, good stuff, enjoyable chat!

Steven

[Steve Saunders]

The following processes have been emerging this week, through trial and variation with a couple of non-delegate volunteers.

A. The Emerging Process of Emerging Moving / Moving Emerging

As usual, waiting for the client’ing to be communicating before asking or responding.

0 Client movement (moving, emoting, sensing) or statement (stating)

1. “and as you are ...ing what is happening as you are ...ing?” (re-use a few times)

1.a. [“and then what is happening?” (re-use a few times - optional stage)]

Under discussing/debating - this is seeming to be bringing cycling of old stuff without escaping the cycling, but maybe this is sometimes necessary or useful before using the next questioning.

2. “and now what is happening?” (re-use a few times)

3. “and now’ing (what is happening)?” (re-use a few times)
3.a “and now’ing?”
3.b “and’ing now’ing?”

4. “and’ing?” (re-use until laughing or peace’ing or stilling or calming: “I am’ing”)

Gradually more and more of the client wording is returned as “ing’d”, and then the wording is faded with the cleanly emerging meta-driving questioning.


B. Is there a yanging to the yinging?

Designing migrating the out-of-body’ing to embodying through moving navigating. As opposed to a self-other, space environment, this is assuming a parallel moving selfing-othering experiencing and the bringing into migrating integrating the differing moving experiencing inside and outside the selfing (bodying).

Navigating between movings “over here and over there”: addressing the moving of the other (outside of the body) - strange idea in a world of moving which inherently has no here and there, but parallel threads of moving sometimes offset in time.

Draft Processes:

B.1.: and’ing now’ing

and what kind of moving could be between between you’ing and [observing]?
and ... between that’ing and observing ? [repeat until pronoun - 6/7 probably]
and what kind of moving could be between that’ing and you’ing?
- the reverse operator to connect the moving into the bodying.
... that’ing and you’ing? [until something embodied]

then: into and’ing now’ing



C. Variations:

For Emerging moving:
Body mapping Emerging Moving. This process is to bypass the frame of reference to put into words what is experienced by the delegate. Straight to paper, no words to distort the bodily communication.
Draw body map (outline)
And as you are ...ing what is happening as you are ...inging
Mark on body map where the happening is experienced in the body
And now what is happening (represent on bodymap)
follow the above evolution of questioning and keep representing until...I Aming or Inner serenity.


For the yanging:
This process is to represent the kind of moving that is in between by ‘performing the movement, so by moving. This allows to bypass the words.

Draft Processes:

and’ing now’ing

and what kind of moving could be between between you’ing and [observing]?
and ... between that’ing and observing ? [repeat until pronoun - 6/7 probably]
and what kind of moving could be between that’ing and you’ing?
- the reverse operator to connect the moving into the bodying.
... that’ing and you’ing? [until something embodied]

then: into and’ing now’ing



Refinements

and what kind of ing could be between you-ing and [...]-ing?

recognise the pronoun at number 6

and what kind of ing could be between that -ing and you-ing?

recognise the next pronoun, continuing until ...

---------------------------

&WDIKN that I have experienced, trialled and developed these prototype processes?

... to be continued.

Replies appreciated if you've actually tried out the processes or variations on them.
This is shared "work-in-progress".

thanks, Steven

[Steve Saunders]

... and'ing day'ing passing clienting asking more-ing "ing-ing" for moving after loading; loading then developing then moving then finishing then reviewing then newing loading ... cycling developing amusing laughing easying workshopping enjoying

and in the world of object-oriented measurements, the clients ask increasingly for more "inging" and illusions of significant rates of progress begin to appear. In a small sample there is no statistical validity but I am enjoying hugely a changed language that feels more alive.

4 Test clients:

"muching bettering" feels much more dynamic-energetic than "much better" - I feel more connected with the words. It's possibly regressive. I feel more present; it makes a very present feeling. Like piano with the pedal down - muching bettering joining one note up to the next with the vibrations! When I'm focussing on 'ing'ing there is no timing for inner editing of thoughtings and so I'm being truer - more truing to myself and less defending or protecting myselfing.

It moves, it flows, it "ings" - its got a nice flow - it was hypnotic!

It's got a new-ness and a vibrancy about it. It suggests connectivity as well. Sonically, its different. The sounding has a different quality - its more grounding and primal.

Now I know what it is, just get into the swing of it; its been a bit intermittent; I'm wanting to do more of it. It's got a rhythmic thing'ing. It's like in tennis - you have to carry through.

------------------------

My part-analysis: because moving experiencing has no self-other/space/time, its parallel threading experiencing and placing people into flowing and everything starts moving quickly and effectively. Pacing from Object-Oriented experience is the impulse required to create the initial momentum. There is no space in 'inging so languaging changes ...

Moring thinking anon'ing

Steve-ing

[Corrie van Wijk]

Hi Steve,

It's great to watch you ing-ing!

Since I've been moving around a bit myself, I wondered: is there a difference between moving yourself (your feet if you're walking, your hands if you're rowing, your body if you're swimming, rocking in a chair), being moved by somebody else (like in the whirly-gig or the swing), or moving without moving, like in a car. The nice thing about travelling is that the landscape changes gradually or suddenly, so something happens to you without you're really moving (except my right foot and my left hand).

If the client chooses him- or herself where it moves to, there's no clean move involved from the facilitator, except the invitation: "Find a space that wants you to move to."

Asking about the movement itself, can be significant, e.g. "What does that movement know about the direction it goes?", but I think that clean space is about perceptual systems. A space is the equivalent of something that is somehow significant to the client, and everything that has to do with it around it. So moving to the right space allows you to download all the memories that are associated with it. Hence the questions what shape, how far, how big. so you can establish it's boundaries. You need to be still to take a snapshot of it, so you can investigate it consciously.

Focusing the client's attention to the movement, is like trying to dance or skate with your mind, it doesn't work. Once you learned the steps, it takes only a couple of tries to get into it again. Thinking about it confuses you.

Other than that, I think that just moving can be very healing, the unconsious knows what it needs and all you have to do is trust the system. No clean move involved, except in the whirlygig, but then the client navigates you in which posture he or she needs to be to be associated best.

[Steve Saunders]

Noticing differing experiencing of wording:

Would you like to go to the shops? //
Would you like to go shopping? //
(Woulding) liking going shopping? //


go to a dance?
going dancing?

laugh / laughing
play / playing
walk / walking
emergent / emerging
movement / moving
life / living
speak / speaking
talk / talking
do / doing
anon / anon’ing
be / being
just / justing
strange / strange-ing
weird / weirding
====================

Thanks Corrie for replying; I am agreeing that just moving can be healing - very'ing!

Agreeing also focussing thinking on inging will not be working! Inging is expressing not for pondering or thinking - so agreeing. Maybe inging is more for releasing after understanding and space is great for attaining understanding. for those nonverbal thingings that whirlygig or have no wordings then the inging might be useful!

The early days inging enjoying am I. Reducing the F moving through "and'ing" after client'ing moving feeling very cleaning for me'ing!

Also agreeing - we need to have both conscious understanding and unconscious revelation/releasing - two aspects of a whole cycle!

Certainly crazily regressive stuff! Plan to play to explore and then in a while start to find the context for inter-relating space, emergent space (and EK), and the moving emerging.

One very clear learning I've made is that every single form of facilitation has an allergic response: some clients hate being asked questions, others hate instructions; others drawing or writing or ... some other trauma has pre-sensitised them and the very form of work will excite the sweet spot of the trauma. So a variety of clean ways of F'ing is an F'ing good idea IMO.

bye'ing Steve'ing!

[Corrie van Wijk]

Steve: "One very clear learning I've made is that every single form of facilitation has an allergic response: some clients hate being asked questions, others hate instructions; others drawing or writing or ... some other trauma has pre-sensitised them and the very form of work will excite the sweet spot of the trauma. So a variety of clean ways of F'ing is an F'ing good idea IMO."

I recognise that: I never liked to draw or write, because I wanted David's focus on me, but at one point I realised it would be easier for David to make sense of it if I made some kind of representation. My compromise was to find symbolic objects. I remember David made me aware of the reversibility of a glass container with a rock and a rock container with a glass object, which was very clarifying.

But any representation freezes the experience and binds it, so it can't change any more. Mind your metaphors!: you better find ones that have built-in possibilities for change. I remember Brenda's video at David's funeral, she was explaining a bit what kind of work David was doing, and used an example of a metaphor. David would never pick any one, but waited for one that had hope in it, and thus a possibility for change, like the ray of light into the black hole.

Keep ing-ing!

Love,

Corrie

P.S. Here is a previous contribution of me:

A human doing

Shakespeare's probably best-known quote is the one from Hamlet in Act III, Scene I(56-87):

"To be, or not to be: that's the question: [...]
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action."

According to Maturana in 'Biology of Cognition' (1970), the 'being an doing of [living systems] are inseparable'.
Ilya Prigogine ('Dissipative structures in chemical systems', 1967) realized that dissipative structures maintain themselves in a stable state far from equilibrium. A living organism is characterized by continual flow and change in its metabolism, involving thousands of chemical reactions. Chemical and thermal equilibrium exists when all these processes come to a halt. In other words, an organism in equilibrium is a dead organism.
Living organisms continually maintain themselves in a state far from equilibrium, which is the state of life.
Dissipative structures are islands of order in a sea of disorder, maintaining and ever increasing their order at the expense of greater disorder in their environment. In this way order 'floats' in disorder while the overall entropy keeps increasing in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics.
Thus, self-organization processes in far-from-equilibrium conditions correspond to a delicate interplay between chance and necessity, between fluctuations and deterministic laws. (Quoted from Fritjof Capra, 'The Web of Life', 1996.)

To do or not to be, that's the answer.

Paul Watzlawick's main axiom of communication is that it is impossible to not communicate, every behaviour (in a social context) is communication.

So, what would 'Doing Clean' be like?

Corrie van Wijk

[Steve Saunders]

0. inging: doing cleaning ...! ;-)

1. cleaning facilitating ; facilitating cleaning ...!

2. be like; is like ; is living clean ; minimising projecting maximising flowing of clienting

3. selfing removing clearing channelling freeing spacing

4. back to "doing cleaning" ... being cleaning ; being cleaned ; self-service cleaning ; providing self-cleaning tooling

5. vacating spacing for clienting emerging embodying selfing until noselfing lefting and whole'ing

6. &WDIKN?
whatever; the great thinging about inging is no longer needing to knowing ... just being and doing no thinking . hoho'ing!

Steven
PS The Inging Issue Busting ...

0) Loading B'ing
1) & what else are you'ing knowing about that'ing?
2) & what else is that'ing knowing about you'ing?
3) and anything-else'ing about that'ing?
4) and that'ing is coming from where'ing?
5) and now what is happening?
6) and anything-else'ing?

each of the above 6 times and then between each set of 6 "and what is you'ing knowing now'ing?"

For self-use: "and what else am I knowing? ..."

end of PS

[phil]

I enjoy the focus on the present perception/experience that using the gerund brings for several reasons:

• It keeps directing the attention to now... and now... and now.
• It acknowledges that, in one sense, it's ALL happening now, even our history and our future; as we think of them, we are doing it now.
• Now is when changes can happen; no other time.
• It tends, I think, to bring the attention to the body, the senses, the immediate, current experience.
• I think it's a useful skill to have to be able to choose to perceive and language experience in this way some of the time.

Ing Irritating

I wonder if there's a way to reflect present continuous experience in language other than by adding '-ing' to everything. As I read Steve's examples, I find the 'ing' tail on each word off-putting; aesthetically for me it's mechanical and tedious to read - I have to struggle to stay with the sentence. The 'ings' overpower the sentence - the tail wagging the dog?

What other form of language can communicate the present continuous?

Where do tenses come from?

I also wonder how come human language emerged in such a way as to include past, present and future forms of verbs - and then even more complex forms like perfects, conditionals, participles and so on.

I understand the concept of, say: 'I-ing climbing treeing' where the 'I', the 'climbing' and the 'tree' can all be described as having some sort of present continuous existence; any living system is always doing something, if only standing still.

'I climb trees',
'I am climbing the tree',
'I was climbing the tree',
'I will be climbing the tree',
'I will have been climbing the tree'
'I had been climbing the tree'
'I would have been climbing the tree', etc, etc

I would say 'I-ing climbing treeing' is included in the meaning of each of the sentences above, but not the other way round; the elemental 'ing-ness' of the sentences can be extracted from the sentences, the sentences cannot be created from the 'ing-ness'.

So, whatever is gained by directing a person's attention in this way to a present continuous experience, the cost is the simplification of the description which may contain important distinctions.

Could it be that the ability to create distinctions between perceived past, present and future events was more useful to humans than speaking as if (or even, arguably, 'as is') everything is happening now... and now... and now?

Cheers (not cheering!)

[Steve Saunders]

yes indeed (ing!) - that would be "agreeing"

There is a time and a place for inging and for when not to ing (context).

And finding the appropriate context is part of contextualising its use!

Yes its difficult to follow someone's process because the very flowing nature defies objectivity - or at least that is my projected experience from believing Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

And I guess a second-hand transcript reading is a poor substitute for the presence - being in the presence of the inging when used appropriately.

And yes, evolution regarding language, the specificity and according the clean respect of client reality make de-nominalising more NLP than SyM-clean perhaps from an ethos of reflecting present client experience.

So, if something is measured in space-time then space-time is appropriate for unmeasuring, if something is measured in soma then unmeasuring would also be somatic if we keep to the homeopathic principle underpinning clean of applying "like to heal like" by working with the symptoms.

So, great, the thinking is moving from forms of F questioning (space B) into context (space C/D) and history (space D for me, spaces C' D' for David).


Thanks again Phil - very helpful - or is it very helping?

Steven

[Steve Saunders]

So when to use "inging"?

Before being able to answer this, what circumstances, what are the natures of the problems faced requiring clean facilitation?

My choice as F is to facilitate the recovery of the "not here and now" into the now. That's my service offering, through as clean an F as I can provide, minimum intrusion, minimum dose, maximum client-driven emergence.

So, a client comes fragmented due to a "defining moment", measured through location, momentum or both. While maybe either can facilitate understanding and release of the measurement structure, emergent space and emerging moving have different properties. The space, as Corrie has said, leads to conscious understanding. The moving leads to releasing. So there may be phases of navigating or navigation, pauses for understanding, and migration or migrating fragmented aspects into (or out to) the body here and now.

The history of inging is explored in joining the dots in the "between" thread.

How can the different forms be used together seamlessly and/or harmoniously?

As symptom forms arise: verbals, thoughts, emotions, soma; each form has either predominantly location or momentum coding, and so the next meta-driver can be using one of space, EK, emergence or emerging moving. Working WITH the symptoms stage by stage feels efficient and the path of least resistance.

What if something is equally signalling soma and location? Then both require unmeasuring, the order may not matter but I feel that unmeasuring location first will provide for better flow.

Hmmn, food for thought.

Steven

[Steve Saunders]

"Every dote has its Anti"

So far, in my work in this field of human development I have found that any process, any question, any form will have a client for whom the very process is traumatising. Even the asking of questions will have an abreactive client. Why? Because as a child they were interrogated by parents, and as the inner child work progresses this will come out and the asker of questions will become an object of client projection.

Having emulated Phil and congratulated myself for the sheer brilliance of reducing psychiatry, psychotherapy, coaching and clean facilitation to the asking of one question, I found myself released to consider its down-side, which is as follows:

Wun. Mr Tu-Seer Eus will abreact if the inging is mis-paced. Why? Because he was stopped having fun and playing as a child, and was told to grow up or be sensible or now he's a big boy; anyway he has to be serious, and it means something fun is going to be trouble!

Too. It goes with and through the present experience, however in-the-moment painful. [In the greater context there is less overall pain, but all the same it may not feel very nice at the time. - Like all medicine that works, hey - it tastes horrible! Well, that's one of my childhood memories of medicine.]

Free. Language mis-use; anyone told off for incorrect english or grammar - whoa! I'd better duck now, this will bring out that inner child pathology. Ouch!

Phaw: So to counter this, a sense of humour is essential - and boy, did David enjoy his jokes during the pauses between phases of "operating".

Fife: A sense of Scottish economy with wurrrdds, can help yoo knoww.

Sex: Appeal to the real client; the child wiv'In or wiv'out.

Steven-ing!!
Edit/Delete Message

[phil]

In between the stuff about (your?) childhood, I'm trying to understand what you're saying here about your emerging moving approach (ing-ing).

Downside of ing-ing:

1.

abreact if the inging is mis-paced

.

Mis-pacing the ing-ing can cause an abreaction? What kind of mis-pacing?

Can you explain what you mean by 'abreaction', a phrase from hypnotherapy that you've used several times recently? How for you is an abreaction the same or different to any other kind of reaction or response?

2.

It goes with and through the present experience, however in-the-moment painful.

Is there a relationship between this and the re-traumatising that David sought to avoid? In his metaphor therapy, he used to grow the inner child through T (trauma) in metaphor to avoid re-traumatising. How does emerging moving respond to the risk of re-traumatising?

What's the relationship between 'painful' and 'in-the-moment painful'?

3.

Language mis-use

Anything else about language, anything else about mis-use in relation to downside of Emerging Moving?

From here the list changes I think to show things you assert are needed for someone to work using emerging moving?

4.

a sense of humour is essential - and boy, did David enjoy his jokes during the pauses between phases of "operating"

How specifically do you use a sense of humour in emerging moving? Within the phases of 'operating'? In the pauses?
For whom is the sense of humour essential?
Anything else about 'essential'?

[BTW interesting to speculate whether there really are pauses in operating or whether it is all operating? In workshops David used to mix his processes with his meta-comments which meant that what was actually happening was a hybrid of the two... another topic - in What is Clean? perhaps]

5.

economy with wurrrdds

Anything else about economy of wurrrdds?

6.

Appeal to the real client

Is it your experience or your presupposition/projection that there is a real client and (by implication) another client who is other than real? What for you determines what is real in this context? For example, is a 'wounded child' symbol or perceiver more or less real than the 'here and now' person?

How does 'appeal to the real client' relate to being an 'equal-opportunities employer of information' that David described?

What kind of appeal is that appeal to the real client?

Phil

[Steve Saunders]

Phil:
[[[[Downside of ing-ing:

1.
Quote:
abreact if the inging is mis-paced.

Mis-pacing the ing-ing can cause an abreaction? What kind of mis-pacing?

Can you explain what you mean by 'abreaction', a phrase from hypnotherapy that you've used several times recently? How for you is an abreaction the same or different to any other kind of reaction or response?
]]]]

a) The kind of inging when clients words are fed back could suffer from this if the moving to "nowing" and "anding" very early on. I emphasise "could", because I am exploring hypothetical downside that will be there.
b) Asking questions too fast or too slowly (both delivery and interval between asking)

Phil: [[[[2.
Quote:
It goes with and through the present experience, however in-the-moment painful.
Is there a relationship between this and the re-traumatising that David sought to avoid? In his metaphor therapy, he used to grow the inner child through T (trauma) in metaphor to avoid re-traumatising. How does emerging moving respond to the risk of re-traumatising?

What's the relationship between 'painful' and 'in-the-moment painful'?
]]]]

Only the words: the inging never goes back to the experience; it seems to bring out metaphor naturally - on a small sample population.
There is no risk as long as the nerve is held and the process completed - IMO.
Perceived emotional pain and experienced emotional pain. Timescale - pain of repeated re-trauma of PTSD versus one finishing of it.

Phil: [[[[3.
Quote:
Language mis-use
Anything else about language, anything else about mis-use in relation to downside of Emerging Moving?

From here the list changes I think to show things you assert are needed for someone to work using emerging moving?
]]]]

The "inging" could emerge an annoyed child that projects at F because of the wording; not yet, but it is possible - there is a timing as to when to use it and how.

Yes - some criteria of what is needed.

Phil: [[[[4.
Quote:
a sense of humour is essential - and boy, did David enjoy his jokes during the pauses between phases of "operating"
How specifically do you use a sense of humour in emerging moving? Within the phases of 'operating'? In the pauses?
For whom is the sense of humour essential?
Anything else about 'essential'?
]]]]

a) With a smile. b) between phases, c) glances and smiles happen if the client comes out from a deeply entranced. I was talking more widely than inging.

Phil: [BTW interesting to speculate whether there really are pauses in operating or whether it is all operating? In workshops David used to mix his processes with his meta-comments which meant that what was actually happening was a hybrid of the two... another topic - in What is Clean? perhaps]

indeed it is but then its no longer just clean q's is it?

Phil: [[[[5.
Quote:
economy with wurrrdds
Anything else about economy of wurrrdds?
]]]]

the less the better, hence moving from the full question to "and nowing" to "and'ing" in the fullness of time

Phil: [[[[6.
Quote:
Appeal to the real client
Is it your experience or your presupposition/projection that there is a real client and (by implication) another client who is other than real? What for you determines what is real in this context? For example, is a 'wounded child' symbol or perceiver more or less real than the 'here and now' person?

How does 'appeal to the real client' relate to being an 'equal-opportunities employer of information' that David described?

What kind of appeal is that appeal to the real client?
]]]]
My experience and presupposition is that the client is a collective of here and now and not here and now aspects; the not here and now is the one asking for help IMO. But the whole person is the client, not one bit.

The not here and now is younger - mostly a child, and so child-like playful ways are in rapport with the playful parts that maybe were suppressed ...

The appeal could be laughing or smiling or feeling happy and safe. Remember that "bigger people" are the scary ones in childrens minds. So being childlike is part of the [ ].

Steven