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Thread: What is emergence? Some questions answered, some answers questioned.

  1. #51
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    Default replying

    I was asked to explain while being informed that explaining was not wanted, so I stopped explaining and offered some questions instead hoping that the experience of trying out the questions might give the answer to the asker. That's it.

    And I finished with "I hope this helps" as a request for feedback as to whether it was a useful process for understanding the state of understanding. Seemed appropriate to a request about understanding. Obviously not, my error.

    In my system there are states of understanding, confused, unknowing, knowing, and more variations related - unsure, sure, uncertain, certain, doubtful, doubting, sceptical, cynical, wondering, musing, thinking, pondering, ...

    I'm not seeking to heal anyone; when asked, I respond. Right now I'm remembering why I chose to not really engage in public forums on the work beforehand. I prefer to do not to discuss.

    If we could stick to technicalities of Emergence and its Foundations and Principles then I'll feel happier. If we could move towards using clean questions to enable understanding of EK to emerge in engagers of this thread, even better. That's how, why and what.

    So I dare (tentatively) to suggest going back to the roots of clean; David's finding of the answer to the question "where do people go when they dissociate?" This, I put to you, is the right place from which to evolve understanding of Grovian Metaphor, Clean Space and EK and its purpose as conceived by David.

    And what do you know about that?

    Steven

  2. #52
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    Default For they sow the wind, and they reap the whirlwind

    I agree, Steve, a move towards clean would be something we could all usefully do in the forum, especially in this thread. Otherwise we are reaping the whirlwind of emotions and confusion that we ourselves sow by being contentious in our statements, not about content but presentation and style of delivery. Although there have been efforts to stick with data and information, the balance has been tipping towards the pointless gladiatorial exchanges so common in forums as emotions ebb and flow. I was starting to think I might have to police myself!

    There is a paradox here however, about which I would be interested in everyone's comments. One use of a forum is to discuss views expressed by others. Even a statement that is not obviously an opinion but stated as a fact may not be regarded as fact by those reading it. E.g. saying ' the process requires 6 iterations and at the 4th there is a wobble' would be a statement of belief and someone would need to be able to question it. I suppose a clean way to ask about it would be to ask ' is there anything else about the '6' of that?' or more direct '

    I agree that a good way to find out more about those views is to ask clean questions about them.

    At the same time it has to be possible to express views in the first place for them to be discussed. I am also

    Perhaps a format will emerge that works - I am excited at the prospect. Well, the place to start is with me.

    So I am going to experiment with putting things in this order:

    Starting a Thread

    Replying to a Post
    The temptation for me is to respond before getting answers to the clean questions, I'll have to see how it goes.
    Last edited by phil; 16 February 2008 at 10:38 AM.

  3. #53
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    Default Replying to a post

    Hi Phil,

    So, where are the clean questions in the last post?

    and what are your answers - seems to me you can post your clean questions and answers and then we can respond with more clean questions and musings?

    So, do we require a new thread on emerging a thread format and post format?

    0) I respond by feeling that I would constrain others by proposing a format. And yet I also feel I want clean questions and emergent answers. This I feel is reasonable - to ask responders to stick to a) clean questions, b) musings that are owned as belonging to oneself, c) emergent answers - are not all answers emergent???

    1) And what else do I know? Well I posted a self-revelation emergent facilitation this morning in the self modelling section, so that provides an answer to Phil on facilitating emergence on oneself - on quite a big issue for me, actually!

    2) and what else do I know?
    Emergence is so big a field that some structure would serve - I propose Emergence has its own Topic, above thread in the forum hierarchy, and that within it are threads on, for example:
    philosophy/underpinnings
    new processes
    applications
    examples and cases
    explorations

    3) and what else do I know?
    maybe its too early to create such a structure

    4) &WEDIK?
    its going to emerge anyway
    so lets just get on with finding out what folk want to know

    5) &...
    I'm losing my will on this

    6) &..
    Nothing left to say.

    Over and out ;-)

    love Steven

  4. #54
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    Default

    So, where are the clean questions in the last post?
    [grin] Put up your sword, Sir Knight, I was still musing about how to go about it! LOL

    * * * * * *
    it's just going to emerge anyway
    so lets just get on with finding out what folk want to know
    What needs to happen for that?

    What do you want to know?

    What do I want to know?

    I want to know what are the various elements of David's 'way', both the emerged and pre-emergent and then to find out more about them.
    Anything else about emerged?
    Processes that emerged from him and from him with others like Clean Language, EK Clean questions, the '6' format, Clean Space, Inner Child, etc

    AE about pre-emergent?
    Recurrent themes in David's work and life like iteration, ancestry, psychoactive, space, clean, metaphor et al that were the context whence the processes emerged.

    AE about David's 'way'?
    It's my word for the totality of David's action in the world, his concepts, his metaphors, his sensory intelligence, what caught his attention, his humour, etc
    I'm losing my will on this
    What is 'this' that you are losing your will on?

    Questions invited (I guess in that this is a forum, this invitation is automatically implied so I won't always bother to say this).
    Last edited by phil; 16 February 2008 at 12:32 PM.

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    Default AE about David's 'way'?

    AE about David's 'way'?

    and what could be the aspects of David's way?

    6 or more times of each: And what (else) do you (not) know about each aspect of David's way?

    6* And what would David say about each of these aspects of his way?

    and what do you know now?

    6* and is there anything else about any of this?

    6* and where could this aspect have come from? (for each aspect)

    and what do you know now?


    voila, some questions!
    Steven

  6. #56
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    Default Answers to Phil's Clean Q's of me

    Quote from me:
    it's just going to emerge anyway
    so lets just get on with finding out what folk want to know

    Phil's clean Q's
    What needs to happen for that?
    What do you want to know?
    --------------------------------------

    What needs to happen to find out what folk want to know?
    They will ask.

    What do I want to know?
    Now this is an interesting question.
    a) Is there anyone out there who can and wishes to accompany me on the forward journey from here?
    b) The best delivery style for Clean Motion - since the notion of delivery style for CM arose I have pondered rhyme, chant song, jazz and space-emergent verbalisation. Now the jazz is quite like the space-emergence - not a fixed rythmn, the chant and song impose their timing unless they somehow wobulate. So far I've used emergent form by default, but moving around - walking, so maybe that does it. More to explore.
    c) The boundaries of "clean" - especially the cosmological one(s).
    d) more about my own explorations like the ebb and flow of unconscious revelation (emergence) and the pause point conscious understanding of the revelations, currently 6:1 ratio, I've explored 50/50; there's a balance and a need to avoid engagement flow if stay tool long in the conversational pause
    e) how to market emergence - its been tough, plenty of other ways talks about emergence or use the word in a very different context and meaning than this one, where its super-charged by the question-patterning (algorithm)
    f) Clean Motion must have an F in service to the emerging movement - GM was in service to the information, CS was in service to the space, EK to the algorithm, then CM has an F in service to the moving - no, it has "F serving the moving", or "F serving moving".
    So now I know I want to express ponderings as thought experiments to emerge new material.

    cool, thanks Phil, very useful!

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    Default Clean Moving

    I wonder about the name for your development area exploring movement and emergence: Clean Motion. I would favour Clean Moving or Clean Mover or Clean Moves (which immodestly I think is just totally brilliant since it has the highly prized double meaning of the best of titles!).

    AE about Motion?
    Yes, movement in relation to space and emergence is an area of development that is rich with potential and personally I am fascinated by it. However the word Motion to me has some connotations which I think work against it.

    First, motion can sound very scientific (perpetual motion, etc) or perhaps more engineering.

    Second, it is what in NLP is called I think a nominalisation - verb as noun. As such it is even further from action than is a gerund

    Third - and don't say that with an Irish accent - unfortunately motion is very rich in comedy potential in the toilet humour area! Even writing this respectful comment, I am having to check and recheck my language to avoid unintentional puns. The word movement isn't much better.

    AE about Moving?
    Clean Moving would match your interest in gerunds so being more 'code congruent', a phrase I heard first from Penny and James.

    AE about Mover?
    Not so good in my view except it does remind us that it is the client doing the moving.

    AE about Moves?
    This utterly brilliant idea (did I say that already?) combines reference to movement and motion in relation to clean and also has a double meaning from a marketing perspective, a statement of belief that 'working with Clean moves people'.

    AE about Moves?
    Did I mention how utterly brilliant that is? Perhaps I did... Too good to be registered I think - like Emergent Knowledge the best place for it IMO is as open source.

    I may go and lie down now and wait for the bouquets and brickbats...

  8. #58
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    Default Moving Cleanly

    Hi Phil

    Indeed the title must involve "ing" - Moving.

    Nice moves but moves are things in chess ...


    The really interesting bit (well one of many) is then interrogating the moving between spaces - fusing clean space with moving cleanly (best yet!)

    Enjoy the lie down - we're moving now!!!!


    love Steven

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    Default i-space

    The really interesting bit (well one of many) is then interrogating the moving between spaces - fusing clean space with moving cleanly (best yet!)
    AE about between?

    Where is 'between' spaces?

    What kind of between is that between?

    * * * * *

    My nephew was trying to explain to me about how those monitors work that can be closer to your eye than you can focus (perhaps gunship chopper pilots' visors are like this?).

    He said they employed an understanding of something called i-space to put on the screen an image that represents the image as it would look at that position between the object and the eye if the object being viewed were really further away.

    I have no idea about what I am or he was talking about except to wonder if it could bear some relationship to the 'between' spaces you refer to?

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    Smile between - a deletion

    Hi Phil,

    initially not the same, but as they are both spaces between - but no the geometry and context are different. The pilot screen works by understanding lenses and projected lines of sight - image processing technology must now be real-timel, used to take hours in the good old days!

    The I-space in my world is the space of the aforementioned pronoun I.

    So Clean Space. One moves to a space from another. In between the spaces, one is moving. There's a lots of interesting info in the movements of finding a new space - its accessing the system's meta knowledge about the space-scape. Initial movements, searching, feeling, ... quite fun to explore. Matthew said david had been asking what's between the numbers, - its movement!


    So, Moving Cleanly; I plan to explore this independently of Space, and then wonder as to what happens when combined - did a little on a 2-day intro the other week, but as I left the experimenting to delegates, as usual people "got results", but I did not conduct the experiments. And the gerundising was half-formed then.

    So Clean Space and Moving Cleanly together make? Applications of Emergence covering both forms of measurement.

    Quantum Physics measures location and momentum separately, not together.

    Emergence un-measures, its a perfect inverse operator for measurement and it can also act as a new measurement device because the operators are self-inverse (sorry, maths - hermitian matrices, properties thereof) in plainer english multiplied by itself the answer is 1, but it is not 1. In even plainer English it undoes time-entropy. sod it, I'm never going to explain it!

    If location and measurement are, as Heisenberg said impossible to measure at the same time, then its why one side of the brain does location and the other movement - presumably both inaccurately because of the uncertainty principle.

    Hmmm

    So, Open Sauce it is!

    I'm wondering if the conversing is requiring to be entering dialogue-ing gerund-forming to be exploring the moving cleanly experience(ing) for revealing the knowing through so doing?

    love Steven!

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    Default languaging moving cleanly

    ok i am proposing changing the posting to moving questioning for exploring moving cleanly:


    "and as [pronoun] moving what knowing is emerging as [pronoun] is/are moving"

    varying: as/while/during, knowing/experiencing/feeling/noticing/sensing, moving for the type of moving - limping, stumbling, hopping, walking ....


    bye-ing!

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phil View Post
    [grin] Put up your sword, Sir Knight, I was still musing about how to go about it! LOL

    * * * * * *


    What needs to happen for that?

    What do you want to know?

    What do I want to know?


    I want to know what are the various elements of David's 'way', both the emerged and pre-emergent and then to find out more about them.
    Anything else about emerged?
    Processes that emerged from him and from him with others like Clean Language, EK Clean questions, the '6' format, Clean Space, Inner Child, etc

    AE about pre-emergent?
    Recurrent themes in David's work and life like iteration, ancestry, psychoactive, space, clean, metaphor et al that were the context whence the processes emerged.

    AE about David's 'way'?
    It's my word for the totality of David's action in the world, his concepts, his metaphors, his sensory intelligence, what caught his attention, his humour, etc

    What is 'this' that you are losing your will on?

    Questions invited (I guess in that this is a forum, this invitation is automatically implied so I won't always bother to say this).
    Thank you, Phil.

    And what would I like to have happen? I too would like to understand "David's way" such as processes and recurring themes developing over the span of David's work.

    And is there anything else? I too would love to hear/know more about the "totality of David's action in the world, his concepts, his metaphors, his sensory intelligence, what caught his attention, his humour, etc"

    And is there anything else? I want there to be a clear distinction between what is David's work and what is other people's extensions and applications of David's work.

    And is there anything else? I would like to keep it clean, for me and for others.

    And is there anything else? I would like others to know that I am just trying to understand all this and it's quite challenging, and to appreciate what it must be like for someone who is not completely immersed in this process 24/7.

    And is there anything else? I just want to understand and to be understood.

    And is there anything else? I would like others to be patient with me.

    And can "others be patient with me"? I hope so.

    Cheers,

    webmaven

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    Default Separating David's work in EK and others

    Wow, this might be tricky, but I will help with this as far as I can.

    When I first met David the EK was in its very early form, still rooted in Space-Like thinking and the spatial start. We held a series of workshops relating "Systems Engineering" to EK for the gaining of insights.

    He had created a new delivery style for EK - Debs or I could post on that sometime, he had developed spinning as well as space, and his "clean worlds" process was his space form of crossing a cosmological bondary using emergent patterns at the spatial boundary (Angela has a full copy of that process - I showed it to David and he said she had captured it well).

    I remember the discussion that led to the idea of the "whirlygig" being acquired. David seemed to play with a lot of people, and inspirations came from without throughout his work.

    David ran two workshops applying emergence to recovering the inner child in Glastonbury, involving space (moving A), spinning A, moving B (never did spinning B in my experience).

    David continued to develop, on his own path, the "B boxes", the question cards, and clearly was working on "the story" - addressing the "tyranny of the narrative", and concepts like metonomy.

    Senses of psyche-scapes as slices through systems was David's idea and I'm not sure if he fully formed it, but I think needed not to with the removal of F.

    --------
    Together many new processes emerged, but if they have to be purely David then no point mentioning them?
    --------

    Separately, I created the "loading B" but David named it that and gave it the "tail wagging the dog" metaphor after I described it to him.

    I suggested "scaling" drawing and he tried it out on me and others. David had a scaling words/sentences/paragraphs/pages/book/child scene, and we looked at a number of forms of scaling thereafter. However, David said lots of drawing work happened in his work in the 80's, so maybe this was a re-working thereof. Scaling, by the way, is what he asked me not to teach, so it will stay off the forum in terms of process and content.

    I suggested the "no initial question" and many innovations since. I'm not sure whether David took on further the "no initial question" form, though. It emerged from our discussion about starting conditions - my own paranoia about getting the start right, and in chaos theory its all important, and David realised/knew this inherently.

    We had an amazing 6 days over Christmas 05 where loads emerged like sampling all the "not" spaces - there are 7 complementary spaces to "and what do you know?" I challenged David to ask a question the same twice and he could not; so we started using no questions, like "a,b,c,d,e,f" - a letter in place of a question, or "1,2,3,4,5,6" and "and" repeated, and gestures repeated. seems like the questions became evermore irrelevant and in the way and that the F had to be further removed. So we started doing workshops with hours between questions, and the results became evermore powerful. I notice parallels in what we were both up to after November 06 when we stopped collaborating.

    He was never really very interested in my "momentum" side that complements the "space" side of experience in terms of exploring it himself; he encouraged and left it to me, hence the now emerging "moving cleanly".


    Cheers

    Steven

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    Default Can the Facilitator 'F' off?

    I suggested the "no initial question" and many innovations since. I'm not sure whether David took on further the "no initial question" form, though. It emerged from our discussion about starting conditions - my own paranoia about getting the start right, and in chaos theory its all important, and David realised/knew this inherently.

    We had an amazing 6 days over Christmas 05 where loads emerged like sampling all the "not" spaces - there are 7 complementary spaces to "and what do you know?" I challenged David to ask a question the same twice and he could not; so we started using no questions, like "a,b,c,d,e,f" - a letter in place of a question, or "1,2,3,4,5,6" and "and" repeated, and gestures repeated. seems like the questions became evermore irrelevant and in the way and that the F had to be further removed.
    ...getting the start right... F had to be further removed

    Ref. reducing the influence of the Facilitator, what happens when the only 'question' is "And 1" then "And 2" and so on up to "And 6" with a client who has no previous experience of these processes?

    AE about no previous experience?
    I am wondering if it makes a difference if someone has previously been asked 'And what do you know?' 6 times and then in a subsequent session is asked "And 1?" etc.

    Together many new processes emerged, but if they have to be purely David then no point mentioning them?
    What kind of processes?

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    Default

    Webmaven: "And is there anything else? I want there to be a clear distinction between what is David's work and what is other people's extensions and applications of David's work."

    There is an article written by David and Carol Wilson about Emergence, it's probably on the Clean Language website. Also there you'll find an excellent article by James on Clean Space.

    Penny: "Since the very early days David has experimented with "physicalising" and "laying out in space" the client's metaphors in a variety of ways. James' article How Psychoactive Space is Created and Utilised at http://www.cleanlanguage.co.uk/Psychoactive-space.html describes many of David's (and others) methods of utilising space as the fundamental context within which change can take place. I believe Clean Space and Emergent Knowledge are a fundamentally different way of working from the Childwithin and Quadrants 3 & 4 approaches, and represent David's third "quantum leap".

    Love,

    Corrie
    Last edited by Corrie van Wijk; 05 March 2008 at 02:23 PM.

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    Default Clean Language Website?

    Corrie,

    Is that the www.cleanlanguage.co.uk site you are referring to? I should probably spend a little more time reading all the articles there, though I have read a few of them (mostly David's and Cei's). Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. ;-)

    webmaven

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    Default Re Can the Facilitator "F" off

    Phil:"what happens when the only 'question' is "And 1" then "And 2" and so on up to "And 6" with a client who has no previous experience of these processes?"

    Indeed, the timing of such questions might be interesting. I used "and?" recursively in my "NLP" days once or twice; worked well to exhaust a level of thinking and result in a chunk to another level of perception; resolving the starting conditions.

    Agree the "training effect" probably allows this to happen. Might be worth trying out such things.

    But instead we (D & I) chose other ways, independently - loading B, the story of A and B, and reducing the F input to a few questions per day.


    A related aspect - how easy is it to be a client with very little F input?

    The people who have tended to find emergent facilitation hardest are professional coaches/therapists; the general public straight-in have mostly found it far easier to get on with self-emerging. I'm only talking about 80 people, probably 50/50, so a small sample but becoming significant.

    An analogy; if I could get a new graduate in my electronics lab then they would set to work and become highly productive easily, with the lightest of management touches; if I got a person who had been "institutionalised" by the typical engineering management, then I could have a struggle helping them unleash their talent.

    I found that people coming into a discipline untrained, from the outside, across physics, electronics, computing, systems, project management would find their own natural way more readily than people trained in "how they should do it". Consider Bandler - Computer Scientist, as an example.

    So in management the ideal was to eliminate the F - and I progressively did this through the 90's. It's still said today that the best leaders makes themselves redundant. The analogy works in Facilitation. The more the F interferes, however benevolently, the less the progress of the client IMO. LESS IS MORE; in all walks of life! With my children, the less I interfere the more the natural behaviours emerge and life evolves best for them. They ask me for help as and when. I use the same philosophy as F in the work; wait until asked for a question; then wait again!

    It is not a new concept in many walks of life, and I'm fairly sure its not that new in facilitation, but I've not looked very hard to find out.


    What Kind of New Processes Emerged?

    Emergent ones. ;-)

    AITAEAT processes?
    They mainly used 6 questions but sometimes the rule was broken; David once used a pulling-back form on me 33 times in a row.

    AITAE?
    1. Boolean Spaces of questions
    2. Forms of question content - small but important variations in wording, moving from space-centric to system-centric/emergent
    3. recursive algorithms (6 sets of 6 q's with pause points) - and recursions of these
    4. pulling back / separating pronouns and adjectives to cause inner child scenario - updating the early inner child work
    5. group-form parallel-emergence algorithms, keeping groups entranced with clean language
    6. algorithms for traversing sets of worlds spatially - 2 to 3 questions per world
    7. some of the forms that went into the CC manual - different scapes
    8. conforming the space and whirlygig design - the psychlorama
    9. the reconfigurable environment
    10. mannikin - I think one was got for the conservation of conversation event - loading a body B separate from A
    11. Lots of Scaling stuff (huge amount of processes and work there)
    12. loading methods prior to engaging the whirlygig or other emergent process
    13. Trauma Centre design and total retreat process

    Sure there's more Phil, this is just a starting list of lists.

    Steven

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    Default No Mind

    Steve,

    I appreciated your explanations of some of the origins of David's work (and your own) and also very much appreciated your comments under "Adjacency."

    AWWYLTHH? I'm curious to know whether the concept of "no mind" emerged from your own development of EK, or was a construct used by David.

    AE? I know that, for me, the idea of "no mind" is quite a jump, more like a leap of faith actually, and from the way you describe it, it seems to be more of a transcendental state or a way of being that has some spiritual qualities to it (as opposed to intellectual qualities?). Am I understanding this correctly?

    AE? I understand that you have a breadth and depth of experience with EK, and I appreciate your trying to convey in words what you learned from your collaboration with David.

    webmaven

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    Default Re: No Mind

    Thanks, we're all doing our best. ;-)

    The "No Mind' aspect comes from my work since. I never heard D mention it - maybe others can help with this. David was far more interested in the physicality than me - so he wanted to measure body signals for evidence etc. I felt like he did not really want to talk about anything spiritual; anyway we did not - he wanted my engineering, physics, algorithms, pattern recognition, neural nets, radar, image & signal processing knowledge.

    Yes, if we are going to separate spiritual from intellectual states then "No Mind" would be called some kind of transcendental or spiritual state. And; a state is a state! I appreciate its a leap of faith. Evidence always useful, and in my world that comes only from direct experience.

    It's good to be stretched to explain something that has sunk in so deep its natural. There's always a new learning in learning how to communicate what I know but have forgotten - especially all the steps in-between A and B! David described me as a middle-out person and he worked out to ask me patterns of questions such that gradually the whole emerged.

    &ITAE?

    cheers

    Steven

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    Default Differences in Our Approaches to Emergence

    Two Approaches To Emergence: at 6ís and 7ís

    David: 0 to 6 Steve: 1 to 7
    0: Geometric Start The Pause Point 1: Entering Right Relationship Saturday
    1: Ordinary 2: Self-Referenced Sunday
    2: Less Ordinary 3: Reflection (other) Monday
    3: Philosophical 4: Contextual Tuesday
    4: The Wobble Two Signals 5: Go To Source Wednesday
    5: Phoentical Immolation - Heating 6: New Vision Thursday
    6: A New Form 7: Manifesting Friday
    (0/7 Inner Child) 1: Next Pronoun Saturday


    I proposed to David that the pattern of 6+1 (7) was fractal and in nature, and proposed the Issue Buster: 6 sets of 6 with pause points and an initial loading. I proposed that the pattern also lay within a question and an answer.

    David said that for that to be true, emergence had to be in everything. We left it at that. Later on David did starting using the 6 sets of 6.

    I believe that emergence does underpin all actions - have for a long while now. The difference between any forms of facilitation is then about how freely the F enables the clientís emergence to flow naturally. So, a process aligned with the natural flow of emergence is the most effective form of reality intrusion that an F can provide - in other words it is then the least intrusive.

    So, I proposed a difference D from David; that D was time and C space, and that both were split into 3+3; the known world and the adjacent world, and that the wobble was due to the client being equi-distant from both pronouns at either end of a pattern of 6 emerging questions: the 4íth meta-driver question has a wobble because there is the last info from the old world and the first info from the other world. As sometimes some pronouns have more information than others, on occasions the wobble happens earlier or later - after all, who says they are all equally strong? Information density is the gravity of the humanís collective Galaxy.

    I also proposed that the pattern is primal in humans - the 7 day week. And if you look into the meaning of the Gods represented by the days of the week then you can understand the process at another level; this is the same format as a good mediation or negotiation. So the work is fractal, and fits all forms of human interaction; to get the best results one simply works with the flow. And so the week can be lived according to emergence.

    Probably, if you wish to proceed from just David's work, start from his 1-6 model, and find what you find!

    Steven

  21. #71

    Default The Issue Buster:

    The Issue Buster:: 6 sets of 6 with pause points and an initial loading.

    This was a process that Steve proposed and my memory serves me, David resisted it initially. While we noticed the power that it had and eventually David took it onboard. It is a process and interestingly people could not achieve results by just following the process there was more needed, this was probably the first step into looking at more than just the objective results.

    While I supportís your analogy Steve with the 7 days of the week, I think this may be more information than is needed at this time, cloudying the waters. And hiner moving on IMHO
    John

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Glastonbury, England
    Posts
    512

    Default Hindering and Reasons for posting

    Hi John, thanks.

    0SWDIKAT?
    The text was a table before the "automatic formatting took over". I was illustrating the differences so people can, to quote Phil "follow the right gourd or shoe"! I've been asked to clarify the differences. By the end I reckon there were no differences left, just different paths to the same realisation. Bu that is just my opinion.

    I'm posting further on this under my own thread.

    Cheers

    Steven

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