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phil
08-08-2008, 11:58 AM
Forum direction

Ground
There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of forums on the web, discussing as many varied subjects as one could imagine.

A lot of forums welcome the most common form of debating which is more or less adversarial. It is the form practised in most democratic forums worldwide, including elected assemblies. A proposes an idea, B tries to knock it down and / or supplant it with a counter-proposal. Sides are taken and the toss is argued interminably over who is right or wrong. This sometimes descends into personal attacks and angry exchanges, even war.

For some, the adversarial model symbolises energy, excitement, cut-and-thrust, 'robust' debate and so on. At its best it can have elements of all these. At its worst the need to win takes over and the original purpose of the discussion is forgotten.

It seems to me that, for debating anything the adversarial system is incredibly wasteful of everyone's energy and time. Attention often drifts away from the content being debated to the process of debating and sometimes the capacities of the debaters. Often then the need to be right, to win at all costs is what really triumphs. Then good ideas die - ideas that with the oxygen of constructive discussion might have grown into the kind of great ideas that make a difference.

Figure
With that backdrop in mind, it has become much clearer to me in the last few weeks the kind of forum I want to belong to and to provide for others.

The time spent defending a standpoint (hear those metaphors!) would IMO be much better directed towards examining a proposal closely, thinking it through and responding with calm, constructive comments, perhaps pointing out deficiencies along with the positive benefits and generally looking to build rather than destroy. If the adversarial system has standpoints A and B that fight it out, the yes-and system has A and B who are co-creating and constructing and developing an emerging standpoint C.

This is roughly outlined elsewhere in this forum ('yes... and' etc) and still needs some development.
I want to guide cleanforum in this latter direction, obviously. In the kind of forum I am proposing, I want members to be able to enjoy a 'yes-and', 'calm, constructive challenge if necessary' environment.

I realise that this is directive and that some will not like that. My hope is that most will welcome it. It is experimental and I can't guarantee it will work. As the forum stands, it will not happen at all without a direction being set and steered for at least some time. Perhaps eventually it can become self-sustaining. All will depend on the will of the membership to make it work.

I will email the membership soon to explain my ideas and ask them for any constructive comments or suggestions, which I am eager to receive. Members will be able to comment offline.

Phil

Angela
11-08-2008, 09:40 PM
Hi Phil (and to everyone reading),

I have been reading recent posts with interest, and as a bit of a clean forum 'stalker' in recent months, without actually posting, I would like to comment and agree with a 'Yes, and' approach to the Clean Forum in future.

I feel I owe Phil an apology as I intended to be a regular participant in the forum, but over the last year or so, mainly work and also life obligations have got in the way. Like many I suspect, I didn't set my registration to receive postings to my email address as and when they are replied, so my forum visits have been spasmodic, as and when I have time to log on and see what's going on.

Recently, I have asked myself, "What happens just before I post?" as I obviosuly haven't been, and would like to share this with you. I find the information posted absoluutely fascinating, and after reading a post or two I feel compelled to post. Then I carry on reading and begin to feel as though I am intruding in a private correspondance, rather than a forum discussion. Then I go and have a cup of tea or something, and think aboiut something else.

I'm sure no-one is to 'blame', and I deeply respect those who have taken the time to post, and feel responsible for not contributing more in the past.

I also have the utmost respect for Phil, who has worked hard to create a forum that all can participate in, I see Phil as our 'F' (facilitator) who is endevouring to hold the space for us to all contirbute in a safe and supportive environment.

As someone who is involved in training EK, I do recommend to my students that they log in to the forum, but haven't yet seen any posts from them.

My opinion is (and I know it is an opinion, not a fact) that some of the postings could indeed feel exclusive and not open to everyone. I know many of the regular participants and feel sure that the intention isn't adversorial, as they know each other and know the meaning of the message is meant in a constructive manner. However, if I were a complete outsider (ie someone new to these processes and didn't know the people involved) then the discussions could, I feel, not only put them off participating but also alienate them from the whole world of EK. Why? Becuase EK is about connectedness and adjacency and some postings seem to be very different from that (in my opinion).

If our postings were to mirror a EK session, how would that be different (or the same?) to what we are experiencing now?

I think we all want to spread the word about this wonderful technique (do we?), and feel we need to present a public face of 'joined-up-ness', albeit with different opinions. As such, personally I'd like to see some fundamental principles set about EK that we can all agree on. (Maybe that's a totally separate discussion?)

I would also relish a separate forum where open disagreement could be voiced, available to those who chose that option (maybe those who had already covered some basic training?). Still, even then, I feel the discussions could encourage more participation if we expressed our views as just that, a certain opinion rather than an ultimate truth. So many of us have worked with David and each of us learned our own 'truth', and I for one want to learn from as many other's opinions and perspectives as I can. I am sure we all know our own truth is just that, but reading the posts it seems as though sometimes people are expressing their opinion as a definitive answer, rather than just one view.

In my mind, what we have happening in the EK community today is exactly mirroring the EK process itself. Various people (nodes?) are expressing what they know, and I'm sure that the combined knowledge will lead to greater wisdom, if we all network together in an inclusive manner, taking on board Davids 'equal rights' statement about how all parts of a system need to express themselves for a higher level wisdom to emerge.

I'm not sure yet Phil what your intention is with the forum, whether you are thinking of disbanding and starting again? However I wonder what would happen if other 'stalkers' (like me) use this as an opportunity to post? It would be great to hear from more people who have been slient in the past.

I am going to make a commitment to join in more regularly, and I hope others out there may decide the same.

I am happy to follow Phil's 'yes and' suggestion for posting, and please do contact me directly if you have a more adversorial oprinion, I am very happy to debate (argue!) in a private exchange.

Right, now I've broken my 'vow of silence', I'm going to find some more threads to post on!

Warm wishes to all I know, and pleased to connect to those I don't.

Angela

PS another practical point about posting, I thought long and hard about this post, so by the time I sent it I had been logged out! FortunatlelyI saved my message as I suspect once again I might have given up and gone for that cup of tea...

phil
12-08-2008, 09:04 AM
Thanks, Angela, I won't say much except to thank you for the encouraging words and that I echo many of the sentiments expressed and look forward to posts from others so that we can build up a network of feedback to inform the future development of the forum.

I'll post separately about posting messages and logging out.

Phil