Emergence

[Corrie van Wijk]

Steve: "On the title - EK. EK is limiting to Knowing - staying within ontology and within a cosmological boundary. I prefer Emergence (E) without the nominalisation of knowledge. It then holds the complete frame, because if all life really is expressed through emergence then at last we have something that can fully address the human condition."

I agree with you on this one, Steve, but David might not have. He would always ask "What do you know now?", addressing A. If you want to be able to manage your life, some conscious mind needs to be in charge. It depends on your definition of 'Knowledge'. If that is only something of the conscious mind, then I agree with you that there is a lot more going on on an unconscious level, which is obvious in moving from one space to another. If you ask: "Is there a space that wants you to go to, you are encouraging the unconscious memory to come up with some relevant energy. You don't ask A, because the conscious mind doesn't know, at least not from the space of A.

Corrie

P.S. How did you like my lunar eclipse metaphor?

[phil]

Corrie: "does it matter if knowledge emerges (Emergent Knowledge) or is the process of emergence enough? (Emergence)"


What is the difference between Emergence and Emergent Knowledge, apart from the name?

During what you and Steve are calling Emergence, what does emerge/what is emerging? I mean what words [other than/as well as] knowledge would you apply to what emerges?

Phil

[Corrie van Wijk]

Phil: "Clean Space process brings the network into being and from that emerges .. what emerges."

The simultaneous (clean timing!) triggering of different memories is likely to construct new combinations. However the realisation (= become into being) that, e.g., 1 + 1 = 2 is a different one than 1 + 1 = a pair. In the latter case 1 and 1 are coupled and have something in common. If the brain never realised that before and makes the connection that 1 + 1 are in some respect similar, it is an emergent property. If that property becomes conscious, it is knowledge.

Phil: "What emerges from the ‘process of emergence’ if not knowledge."

The brain may make connections that we never become aware of but do cause change.
Other words: emotions, feelings, physical changes etc.

[Steve Saunders]

Knowledge is a Mind phenomenon, whereas emotion, physicality and spiritual phenomena would have different words (e.g. feeling, sensation, experience, gnosis).

The difference - emergent knowledge is an upgrade of "working with the information" reflecting the cultural flow from "information management" to " knowledge management", but emergence is not just about the mind - there is no difference but the name is more appropriate and therefore more effective IMO relating to projection and starting conditions.

There may be no difference to what emerges, but there can be because of moving beyond the "knowing" question forms. My posting on the "betweens" hopefully can shed some light on the shift from location thinking to momentum thinking, which is more in tune with the whole sense of emergence.

My first quoted text on this thread already explains this. Ask another question ...

Steven

[Corrie van Wijk]

Steve: "Knowledge is a Mind phenomenon, whereas emotion, physicality and spiritual phenomena would have different words (e.g. feeling, sensation, experience, gnosis)."

Except that spiritual phenomena and gnosis are a product of the mind (without a capital). (Damasio)

[Steve Saunders]

Disagree with Damasio. Whoever they are, they clearly do not gnow!

The mind is a product of measurement, and ceases to be once unmeasurement and/or understanding emerges.

The self is not the mind. Who the self is is self-evident if the eyes are opened.

Steven

[Corrie van Wijk]

Steven: "The mind [...] ceases to be once [...] understanding emerges."

And when [understanding emerges], then what happens?

[Steve Saunders]

Is seeing things as they are - in their entirity, as a consequence of which there is no longer an attachment to needing to understand something or no attachment to a past event - it is now just a recorded, clean memory without an emotional overload.

So, recorded, clean memories have no untoward/disagreeable emotional attachments - they are just a clear recording of the past.

the pronouncement comes from knowing, from really understanding the human condition, and seeing it as it is.

Steven

[Corrie van Wijk]

And when [really seeing the human condition as it is] then what?

[Steve Saunders]

Corrie: "And when [really seeing the human condition as it is] then what?"

Well first the word order is not mine, but your re-arranged word order. Changing just one word alters the meaning - something David and his pupils were and are quite hot on.

Answering "and when [my words] then what?"

1. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. What some have called "The Tao". A full emptiness, the void of creation, pure awareness, enlightenment, bliss. Many words, all wrong because words cannot express the inexpressible.

2. Then you know! Then one knows. Then knowing happens. Gnowing.

3. Genuine peace within and happiness with the without. But this is the enlightened illusory state before genuine at-one-ment, at which point the without and the within are identical - inside one's mind is everyone and everything also perceived on the outside but now really there same as on the outside, and thus universal consciousness is realised.

4. Laughter, joy and hilarity at the absurdity of human behaviour.

5. Knowing how to serve the other which one perceives. Accepting a new projection to stay.

6. A new suffering; that of knowing that which (most) others do not, which cannot be shared, cannot be told, and so choosing to be with the few who do understand and gnow.

Ok, 6 different answers of course. Do any of them answer what you wanted to know by asking the question?

[Corrie van Wijk]

"and when [your words] then?"

[Corrie van Wijk]

And when [no words]?

[Corrie van Wijk]

And[...ing]?

[Corrie van Wijk]

What are you [gnowing] now?

[Steve Saunders]

laughing ising what'ing I'ing am'ing gnowing ...

loving

[Corrie van Wijk]

Is there a space that invites you to belong to?

[Steve Saunders]

no, where did that question come from?

Is there a space that invites you to belong to?

[Corrie van Wijk]

That question came from the thought of you moving to France: perhaps it is a projection of my need.

[Steve Saunders]

another answer:

maybe I was unaware of a space inviting me to belong to. I realise that to feel complete myself I require both location and momentum in my life: a place and travel. So somewhere that feels home. And I know I'm creating a world where my house is not selling right now and thus I am not moving to France until the sale goes through - thus somehow I have deferred and I'm still here in Glasto, although travelling a lot this year.

Nowhere is calling to me or asking me to belong of which I am aware, but certainly having a place where people can safely be and release their structures is important to my work. Glasto is a magical place but energetically I've left and it has changed with different people, types of people, coming in: my time here is done unless a new me emerged that fitted the new Glasto that is emerging.

Where do I want to be? at home and travelling. Is a place or space inviting me? Well people in places are inviting me to visit. But I see no "come and be here/live here" messages coming from a space. The ideal location in France exists and I've been there, and it wants to be sold and so maybe that is inviting me, but if that is so then I do not experiencing an inviting and my world is not making it easy to accept the invitation if that is what it is.

SWDIKN? Well, not a lot. I still feel unaware, but I like to think that maybe you picked up on something that is so out of my awareness that I've not yet navigated to it.

So WKOSCTSBT in between me and that space?
no idea
unaware
foggy boundary
entering a clear blue sky
[being interrupted - on the 4th of course]
sunshine
green fields, white fields, brown fields etc
I was invited by central england - the land around buxton, there I fely more at home when driving through than anywhere I've ever been. That land is middle earth, the backbone and centre of england.

over'n'out ...