What kind of F?

[Steve Saunders]

Steve: "The less F does the greater the emergence, down to a critical minimum amount of F presence needed for it to happen? Or is there? If a client can learn self-facilitation then the external F is gone, but is the inner F as neutral as the external F? And what kind of track is an on track track?"

Ok, so Corrie has asked for a thread on this and it feels to me like an EK thread as EK discusses "F" in relation to specifically seeking to eliminate or minimise F from the system.

I do not have answers to my questions above.

If there is no F, at what point does A have to have a component that is a "pseudo-F"?

If there is an "F" how unbiased is that F, internal or not?

Do we trust the wisdom of the system in client selecting F beforehand anyway?

How do we know that we are making the best clean moves for the client given their system responses? How to we know that we are doing the least but enough? How do we know when we are in-service and when we are out of F integrity?

These are open questions inviting points of view, please.

Steven

[super_yacht@hotmail.com]

While most other therapies follow processes (Facilitator led), EK is information led I recognise we (F) will always have some influence even only by our physical presence. The challenge is reducing the stuff we have in our psyche/makeup, I think this is the greatest challenge to facilitator EK, the amount and quality of self development the facilitator has done.

The obvious, language, physiology etc are the gross influences we have. On a deeper level our ‘ego’, need to ‘say something’, guilt that we need to be ‘helping’ our client are all ways that we (F) will impose on the clients system. These are all things that need to be dealt with; the more self-work the facilitator does the less influence they will have on clients.

We each have a unique life experience and one off sessions are not going to re-integrate all the fractured parts that have occurred over our lives (this is the basis of Transpersonal psychology). If you look for a course that includes non-process, Information led, allowing time and space to re-integrate to evolve to wholeness or balance you will not find a lot. Meditation is one way but this can take years, the ‘Collapse theory’ behind the cult movie ‘The Secret’ is perhaps another way (!). Emergent Knowledge extended courses are the most effective way of doing this (in my experience). Even so this re-integratetion to balance will take time, I think Steve and myself have discussed periods of 1-3 years.

When you are self aware to a level where you become aware of others (which in the Spiral dynamics model would be 2nd tier, yellow and above) you are achieving a level of systems communications. When your systems communicate you are asking the questions the client wants to hear/answer. Hence in session get it wrong and sometimes the client will not answer the question you asked but the one they wanted to be asked. Or the effectiveness of the question ‘& now I’m asking my next question’.

So I would suggest that to be a facilitator you need to have been on the receiving end of this work, in addition to other self development work.

In my limited experience I have interviewed a number of different masters in their therapies and while very different language some have similar theories to our work. I have been surprised to learn the over laps with Shamism, actually using almost identical questions to Clean Language. Or TFT, which has a similar understanding or inner child work and the causes of trauma.

This is my personal perspective reducing F is an on going challenge, maybe David’s idea of the cards is another step towards eliminating F’ s influence. The challenge is the Emergence cannot be done with any great results on yourself, you need an F.

John ‘F’arrell :cool:

[Corrie van Wijk]

Thank you John, I agree with most of the above, although I do not know about other approaches. What are the similarities?

John: "The challenge is the Emergence cannot be done with any great results on yourself, you need an F."

I think that, by defintion, if a client seeks help, he or she already concluded they can't figure it out on their own. Other than that, if you seek this kind of help and are willing to pay for it, it must be rather serious. So it is likely that they are somehow upset about it. Being there as a facilitator also serves to support them.

[super_yacht@hotmail.com]

Hi Corrie,
I was meaning you cant learn EK and then process yourself on issues that come up. You still need another person, to work through things that come up. Steve has Josie I have Karen.
I agree a huge part of facilitating is 'holding the space', perhaps this is one reason you cant process yourself?
Have a great Easter

[Steve Saunders]

A person only needs an F for cosmological stuff, or perhaps when the mind is still to weak to hold awareness in focus.

Most people I now work with can self-emerge after a week's retreat. Some cannot, and need perhaps years.

The "inging" is transcending so much anyway now that its all accelerating superlatively!

It is nice to have an "F" but its only necessary before a person has escaped their personal matrix. And that requires a series of cosmological facilitations.

The real "secret" cannot be taught or told, it has to be experienced - just like in the movie "The Matrix". You just have to ask, Corrie.

Steven

[super_yacht@hotmail.com]

Hi Steve,
We shall agree to disagree. Having said that, it has been a while since i attended a course so I would expect they have moved on.

This work is so effective that you can mis-believe you have achieved this level of awareness and balance. I’ve had client’s eczema flare up at certain points in a session, clients arguing (verbally) with themselves after breaking beliefs, while others have spontaneous remission of pain and physical injury. Sounds as through I’ve achieved a high level of understanding in the use of Emergence, awareness and balance. But that all happened long ago, I have evolved to a lot since then. While then my results showed I’d achieved something, I now know I was still far from balance and I’m still on the journey now.

My reason for believing in the need for an ‘F’ is that my questions come intuitively, I then judge whether they are ego driven (my need/want to ask a question), if so then they are inappropriate. This means that to self-process I would be coming out of process to intuit the next question, judging it then asking it of myself. The best results are when a client moves in flow seamlessly from question to question, sometimes asking themselves but also with pressé to keep the process moving along just so.
While this is obviously quite possible, I questioning the effectiveness, after all its information led not client led (in this case facilitator being the client)?

On another thread I used the quote; 'we see things in terms we already know', so there is a progressive development in the work rather than jumps. I realise that your work has moved substantial from David’s, while developing a deeper understanding of his work. But to process through yourself takes a higher level of self-awareness, this is a judgement we can only make of ourselves not another. Ego gets caught up in the belief that ‘I’m at that level of awareness’, so are your clients talking the talk or walking the walk?

It takes time to integrate all this work, you have said so yourself and maybe I do not have the archetype that’s meant to achieve this and I’m happy with that. I work with whatever person’s beliefs are and if they believe they can self-process then that’s cool, I don’t and that’s OK as well. I also don’t see this as a belief that limits my effectiveness. I’m aware enough of projection to be circumspect with this belief.

Hope France is going well

Cheers

[Steve Saunders]

Hi John,

For anything very deep - yes need an F. For creating new things (emerging the new, many coaching applications) the person can learn no F IMO.

For most people most of the time, an F - yes!

France going well - offer accepted, need buyer here for our house, office last day here today, John M is taking it over with his web design software company.

All set for leaving on 30th June assuming no hitches.

Plan a leaving party the weekend after clean conference.

Steven